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Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2091

 Re: 1st century Jerusalem or 21st century america...what does the Bible say

One poster said,

"This is where I agree with David Wilkerson, from his book, "Set the Trumpet to thy mouth" where he said "America is Babylon". Reading Rev 18 and the other prophetic words through-out the OT and New - there's only one place on earth that fits every description of that future tense Babylon."

This is where I agree with that Most Holy Book where It Is Written,

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

"...there's only one place on earth that fits every description of...Babylon."

Yes! There is only one place. And that place is certainly not america. That one place on earth that fits every description of Babylon is Jerusalem!

According to His Word quoted above it is where our LORD was crucifiied! Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem!

And Sodom is applied there to apostate Jerusalem.

There is only one city in the Bible ever referred to as Sodom. It is Jerusalem, see Deuteronomy 32:32 , Isaiah 1:10,11, Jer.23:14,

"For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter."

"Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats."

"I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem a horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evil-doers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them to me as Sodom, and the inhabitants of it as Gomorrah."

America didn't kill the prophets of God, (Rev. 18:24) nor did Jesus tell the U.S.A. they would pay for all their(prophets)innocent blood (Matt.23:34-38)!

Mat 23:34-38 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes; some of whom ye will kill and crucify, and some of them ye will scourge in your synagogues, and will persecute them from city to city: so that on you may come all the blood of the righteous, which hath been shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zachariah, son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Verily I say to you, that all these things will come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent to thee: how often would I have gathered thy children, as a hen gathereth her young under her wings, and ye would not. Behold, your house is left to you desolate!

Babylon that great city is a “great harlot.” Rev. 17:1

Harlotry is equated with idolatry in the O.T. God had entered into a covenant relationship with the Children of Israel: Isa. 49:18, 61:10, 62:5, Jer. 2:32.) He warned them what would happen if they “played the harlot” (worshiped other gods), and sent prophets to call them harlots when they did.

Do not rejoice, O Israel, with exultation like the nations! For you have played the harlot, forsaking your God. You have loved harlots' earnings on every threshing floor. Hosea 9:1

My people consult their wooden idol, and their diviner's wand informs them; For a spirit of harlotry has led them astray, And they have played the harlot, departing from their God. Hosea 4:12

These things will be done to you because you have played the harlot with the nations, because you have defiled yourself with their idols. Ezekiel 23:30

Isaiah called Jerusalem a "faithful city" and a "harlot" in one breath because once 'righteousness lodged in her, but now murderers'. "How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers." Isaiah 1:21

Nowhere in the Bible is america named as a harlot.

Babylon that great city “committed fornication” with the king's of the earth. Rev. 17:2

Moreover he [Jehoram] made high places in the mountains of Judah, and caused the inhabitants of Jerusalem to commit fornication, and compelled Judah thereto. 2 Chronicles 21:11

Note: Josephus the Jewish historian of the first century called Jerusalem "the great city" Every designation of "Babylon" in the book of Revelation was used by secular writers of the first century to describe the city of Jerusalem!

Rev.18:2,4,8 "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of demons, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird... Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues...Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her."

Jesus warned that his disciples should flee the city of Jerusalem to avoid its destruction, which occurred in 70AD as Jesus prophesied it would in their generation.

Luk 21:20-22 "And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that its desolation is nigh. Then let them who are in Judea flee to the mountains; and let them who are in the midst of it depart from it; and let not them that are in the countries enter into it. For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." Rev. 18:9 for in one hour is she made desolate. Matt. 23:38 Behold, your house is left to you desolate!

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Note: The city of Jerusalem was built upon seven hills, Mount Zion, Mount Ophel, Mount Moriah, Mount Bezetha, Mount Acra, Mount Gareb, and Mount Goath.

The City of Jerusalem as it existed in the time of Christ was reckoned to be the "City of Seven Hills." This fact was well recognized in Jewish circles.

The New and Holy Jerusalem is now that great city which is being built by God. That building,that temple,that city, is us.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Seeing there is a new Jerusalem,the old has been done away with. The Destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD is what Christ prophesied, and John in the prophetic Book of Revelation wrote about.

America [or Rome for that matter] is not Babylon but the old apostate Jerusalem which is fallen and destroyed.

Rev 18:19-21 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

The Book of Revelation is not about politics or goverment but God's Covenant with His people revealed in Jesus Christ.

 2011/8/16 1:06Profile

 Re: Ginnyrose

You are on the money. Persecution is still ongoing.


 2011/8/16 10:06

 Re: Savannah

If memory serves Babylon was often a code name for the world or Rome that exemified the world system. Peter writes in his letter she who is in Babylon sends her greetings (1 Pet.5:13). Tradition suggest Peter was writing his letter from Rome.

But whether Babylon is symbolic or literal God is going to judge her. The message is clear. God is calling his people to come out of her. Also for his people to not take the mark. I do not pretend to figure out how to interpret Revelation. But I do agree with your concluding statement. It is about Jesus and his covenant with his people.

Blaine Scogin

 2011/8/16 10:29


Come September, see what is decided for Israel.

Savannah, regardless of what you believe - Please don't take a mark in order to buy or sell.

All of His Very Best to all!

 2011/8/16 11:30

Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2091

 Re: Mystery Babylon is Jerusalem, not Rome[or america]

Due to some comments I read on this thread;

Again I say, futurism teaching breeds well as confusion.

For those interested in following up on who Mystery Babylon is I recommend the link below to a sermon entitled,"Mystery Babylon is Jerusalem, not Rome".

Bless God.

 2011/8/17 7:21Profile

 Re: Savsnnah

Sister do you hold to a post millenial view of eschatology? Are you of the view that the events Jesus described in Mat.24, Luke 21, Mk 13 were fulfilled priorr to or about 70 AD? Do you take the position that Revelation was written prior to 70 AD? You seem to be arguing a post mil view of the return of Christ.


 2011/8/17 17:50

 Re: Savannah

Personally I favor an amillenial view of the return of Jesus. I have read some of the works of George Elton Lard and find his historic premillenialism interesting.


 2011/8/17 17:54

Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2091

 Re: views


Firstly, I'd like to clarify that I'm one of His sons,not one of His daughters.

Secondly, I'm also familiar with George Eldon Ladd and find his writings very insightful, and intersting as well. Although I certainly wouldn't agree with his conclusions as he was,as you stated,historic premil.

Thirdly,I'd answer yes to your question,"Are you of the view that the events Jesus described in Mat.24, Luke 21, Mk 13 were fulfilled priorr to or about 70 AD?" I'd answer yes as well to your question,"Do you take the position that Revelation was written prior to 70 AD?"

If you have ever heard of Jay Adams,he wrote a book in the early 1960's entitled,"The Time is at Hand". It is very brief,yet full of eschatological truth. If you read it you'll know what I believe on these things because it would be something I'd have written myself.

Jay Adams would be considered an amil partial preterist(past-fulfillment). As much as I despise labels, sometimes they're helpful to understand one's views. And other times people misunderstand our views, as they stereotype all who may believe much of a certain view and place them into a mold of their own making.

Thanks for asking Blaine

Note: If I were one of his daughters I'd not attempt to teach the Bible on this forum,or anywhere for that matter,other than at home to my children. It would be shameful and inappropriate for me to do so as God prohibits such in His Most Holy Word the Bible. There are some women who are keenly aware of what God hath said,but there are other women who'd reply,hath God said!
This is to their shame,as it is to the many men who support them.

 2011/8/18 0:23Profile

 Re: Savannah

Brother my apologies for the gender mix up. I assume your screen name implies you are from Savannah GA. I apprecate you answers to my questions. I am familiar with Jay Adams more on the area of counseling than eschatology. Though it is not surprising he would hold to a post nil position. I think, if memory serves, he was influenced by Lorraine Boettner. But then don't quote me on that last statement.

Personally I do not hold to the post nil position nor the dispensational premil position. I take thr amillenial view as seeing the kingdom began with the arrival of Jesus Christ and will culminate with his second return. I mentioned George Elton Ladd. But I think others in the reformed camp have held to amillenialism.

I see that the amil view, sometime nick named the now nil view, best comports with the teachings of Jesus regarding the kingdom. Particularly as he taught about the kingdom in Mk.4. As he told the parables of the coming seed and the mustard seed regarding the kingdom, I think of the now and not yet. Now we are in the kingdom, but not yet to see its consumation until he comes. Oh well just some thoughts.

Brother was not trying to debate. Just trying to clarify some thoughts. I guess in the end I am a pan nil. It's all going to pan out for God's glory.


 2011/8/18 9:32


I truly don't know why there is a quote button when the thing hasn't worked in a couple of months now.

"You can however renounce your faith and Christ, Christ gives you salvation it doesn't mean you have to keep it".

I would have to say that your faith in the scriptures is very weak, or obtained some bad teaching.

Once you are sealed by the Holy Ghost, your sealed, there is no stepping away.

Try it sometime. Try getting away from God and His Christ and see where it will land you. When your one of His, there is no running away. We can renouce Him until the cows come home, as much as Peter cursed and renounced Christ in his day, God didn't abandon him because of his words. He was faithful and true because He called him.

I know of a man who was a homosexual before he came to Christ but because of the struggle that was in his life, he renounced Christ and left the church went and lived with his lover. Time had passed and the Lord came to Him and wooed him, he argued with God tooth and nail, but in the end he repented. When we have His Spirit in us, it's not a just a light thing, we are one of his kids and He just doesn't fling us into the abyss because we have a disagreement or we want to go our own way live in riotious pleasure and find ourselves in some hog pen eating slop.

As for the topic,, the only thing that I can contribute to this is what John said nearly 2000 years ago,

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even NOW (in his time) are there many antichrists; whereby WE KNOW that it is the last time.

Seems straight forward to me that what John was talking about was referring to his day. To stretch this means that someone has invented a very stretchy elastic that even God is not aware of.

 2011/8/18 10:31

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