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 Re: Mathew 6:25-34

Time to seriously take these verses to heart.

 2011/7/19 3:38









 Re:

Krispy,

August 2 is the day the debt will reach the limit set out in American law, allowing for the possibility of default. This will not really happen, since the debt ceiling is purely an abstraction... nothing actual will happen to the economy that day... and it has been raised 10 times in the past 10 years. However, it does give politicians of all stripes the opportunity to needlessly bicker and blame the other party for all of America's problems, while promoting their own interests through the rhetoric of "no compromise". Really, it's amazing that anyone would have the energy for all of this.

 2011/7/19 9:33









 The worst of times, the best of times...

" But when you get to the "Why?" section of your post, I think even you would admit that it is your interpretation of things and not necessarily from the Lord. Is that correct? And I'm not saying you are right or wrong as to "Why?"....................Endzone

I prefaced the WHY? portion with "Implications and Thoughts", which are obviously my take on the vision. Yes, you are right. They are not necessarily from the Lord.

I think that what we are witnessing is much more than an isolated financial event. I believe that we as a church, the international body of Christ; those that are, and will be BORN AGAIN, are headed into the great Tribulation spoken of by Jesus.

I also think that America will fall as a Nation, being defeated militarily. This will set up events for the world wide take-over of the anti-Christ....and I sense that the time is much, much shorter than people believe it could happen. I do not know the time.

I sorrow for the suffering coming upon so many innocent people...so many. The Bible says that 1/3rd of the EARTH will die...today that would be well over two billion. I also thing that of these, about 100 million Americans will be slain.

The implications are too dire to think upon....but...in the midst of this, I am assured that the Church will rise to heights of glory never imagined, given much power and graces, and accomplish even greater works.

The church will know that Jesus is Lord, God almighty, and power belongs unto God.


 2011/7/19 10:59
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4529


 Re: The worst of times, the best of times...

I think that it is important to consider America in terms of the history of the world.

The United States is a very young nation. It is 235 years old (and its Constitution is 224 years old). This is especially true when it is compared with nations from the Old World (such as England, which became unified as a nation in 927 AD -- 1084 years ago). As Leonard Ravenhill said about America's uniqueness, "America is a nation without a people." There is no ethnic or racial makeup regarding national identity as "America." The nationality consists of multiple races and ethnic groups and the term "American" is based upon citizenship and nothing more.

Moreover, America has only been a superpower since World War II. That is a period of about 70 years. In terms of empires (if one would even want to label America as such), America is still in its infancy. This is startling when we consider the duration of other empires. The "superpower" status of empires like that of the British, Spanish, Portuguese, Roman, Islamic, Greek, Babylonian, Assyrian, Mongol, etc... -- lasted for centuries (or longer).

However, since the US is the world's preeminent "superpower," it is easy to point at it as if it were they enemy of Christianity or, in a secular sense, the advancement of the rest of the world. Following the end of the Cold War, the bulk of the nations of the world lay within a new type of power equilibrium. There is no bipolar fight for power, territory or political allegiance. This could be a factor in a future attempt to conglomerate the nations together under a united military or economic agreement as indicated in Revelation chapter 13.

Contrary to popular sentiment, the world may not unite under a "one world government" in prophecy, but under a confederation type of government for which the Anti-Christ will rise to power. Separate nations will still exist. In my estimation, this sounds more like the European Union type of governing. It is the binding of independent nations under a common set of laws and agreements.

America is unique in that its Constitution does not allow for ANY international document, law, treaty, agreement or ruling to take preeminence over the Federal or State constitutions. This is one of the great criticisms of the American role in the United Nations. The US largely funds the operations and security expenses for that organization yet dismisses most of the decisions as non-binding (because of Constitutional supremacy). Therefore, for America to play a role in such an international confederation (considered in terms of Eschatology), its government would not be able to exist in its present form. So, as Brother Tom said, America (at least in its current form) may very well come to an untimely end BEFORE the rise of the Anti-Christ.

Now, in regard to the initial post, it is amazing how "relative" the term "poverty" might be. In his sermon HOLY GROUND, David Wilkerson spoke about the dreadful flaws of the "prosperity" message. Brother David mentioned how the "luxuries" of yesterday have a tendency to become the "necessities" of today. He mentions how indoor plumbing (such as hot and cold running water) was once a luxury but has become a necessity in modern times. The same can be said of other items, like a refrigerator, stove, oven, electric lights, automobiles, etc...

During the Great Depression and through the rations of the Second World War, Americans endured quite well under difficult circumstances. They learned to make the most of what they had and to "do without" for the rest. As a young man, I have always enjoyed speaking with those who are older. I have enjoyed hearing many elderly friends tell me about life during that time period. Families and churches often "pulled together" because they had no other option.

This morning, I saw an interesting article. It was an analysis of the word "poor" and the status of those who are supposedly in "poverty" in the United States. The article shows how current US agencies define these terms.

The term "poverty" is obviously relative to the conditions of the individual who thinks of the word. I remember thinking about how "poor" I was during college when, at times, I lived off of ramen noodles, crackers and peanut butter sandwiches as I worked my way through school (until I was awarded a major scholarship that funded my room and board). Yet, relatively speaking, a young man living in the bush of Africa may have thought of me as "rich." After all, I owned two vehicles, a computer, plenty of clothes, and lived in a nice, fully furnished dormitory with air conditioning and a bathroom.

The analysis mentions that the US Census Bureau paints the American definition of "poverty" with a very broad brush so that it includes more than 40 Million individuals.

Now, the average "poor" family in the United States lives in a home that is in "good repair" and has air conditioning, washers and dryers, many kitchen appliances and cable or satellite television. On average, those families in "poverty" own two cars, have ALL three of their daily meals, own coffee makers, microwaves, ceiling fans, DVD players, two televisions, video game systems, desks, beds with adequate mattresses, couches, chairs, carpeting, cellular phones, computers, high speed internet, etc... Moreover, given vast entitlement programs in the United States, many of these individuals live with the cost of their housing, electricity, water, sewage, etc... paid for through government welfare programs.

Here is a link to a chart showing the results of amenities enjoyed by today's "poor" in America:

http://tinyurl.com/americanpoor

I remember visiting the "government projects" every Saturday and Sunday for evangelism during college and seeing how many of these "poor" lived better than I did.

Like I said, this idea of "poverty" is very different than the notion of "poverty" in many nations. This definition is also very different than those Americans who endured through the difficulties of the Great Depression.

I suppose that many are living the "good ol' days" -- because the days are VERY good for them. It has created an entitlement mentality in that many are dissatisfied even with all of these luxuries. Their appetite is never filled; Their thirst for more is never quenched. In accord with the reference from A TALE OF TWO CITIES in the title of BrotherTom's post, these days are the "best of times" and "the worst of times" concurrently for many individuals.

Yet what does it matter? The New Testament teaches us that we should be content with what God has provided for us. Now, we should endeavor to take care of the needs of our families -- or risk being "worse than an infidel" (I Timothy 5:8). Yet "godliness with contentment" should be our goal in regard to such things (I Timothy 6:6). We should never covet the things of this world -- which I believe is the great underlying error of the "prosperity" message. It literally instructs its adherents to covet the things in this life and find happiness and contentment with them (rather than, like Abraham, we refuse to build a home as we wait for a "city whose builder and maker is God"). Such longing breeds lust: The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life (I John 2:16).

I believe that we are "pilgrims" passing through this world. I used to walk through the halls of my high school and colleges and observe everyone else walking around. I felt so "apart" from the rest. I literally felt like a "pilgrim" just wandering through the "wilderness of this world" in this life. I still feel that way -- regardless if I am at home, work, walking around the neighborhood, jogging around The Dish here in Palo Alto or just out shopping.

The difficulty is trying to determine how to bridge any supposed gap between being a "pilgrim" and an "ambassador." We are Christ's ambassadors to a lost and dying world (II Corinthians 5:20). We still must live in this world of our temporary citizenship, grow in our relationship with Christ, provide for our families and introduce Christ to others.

The good news is that, like Paul, we should have a testimony that "to live is Christ." It is a difficult thing to struggle with when we are so aware that this world is not our home. We long to see our Savior face-to-face...and that cannot happen on this side of the "glass darkly" of eternity (I Corinthians 13:12). Yet that admonition that "Godliness with contentment is great gain" (I Timothy 6:6) causes me to realize that I can be content in this life even though my heart longs for my eternal home in Christ. That contentment is not laziness or complacency, for we long for godliness and an even greater intimacy with Christ.


_________________
Christopher

 2011/7/19 13:12Profile









 Re:

Chris if you live in Palo Alto, no wonder you think we are all rich. Just kidding. I haven't been there since the 3 months I spent at Oakland Army Base on a merchant ship. Very nice area there though.

 2011/7/19 13:42
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4529


 Re:

Hi Endzone,

Quote:

Chris if you live in Palo Alto, no wonder you think we are all rich. Just kidding. I haven't been there since the 3 months I spent at Oakland Army Base on a merchant ship. Very nice area there though.



Ahhh...yes, this is a beautiful area. The weather is nearly perfect by most estimations of the idea of "perfect weather." But I understand what you mean by the term "rich." Palo Alto is one of the wealthiest communities in America. The zip code where we live has an average home price of about $1.8 Million

This community is highly educated and very wealthy. Yet, ironically, there are even some people in this community who think that they are "poor." And, of course, we live in an area that is quite intolerant of Christianity.

Thankfully, God has His people in even these sort of areas who have not "bowed their knees to Baal" like the 7000 mentioned in I Kings chapter 19. We have found some good believers to fellowship with. In fact, my wife and I were recently able to fellowship with a good brother from SermonIndex following a meeting at a local church. We have also been blessed to visit with a couple of other local brothers from SermonIndex as well.


_________________
Christopher

 2011/7/19 14:15Profile
mikey2
Member



Joined: 2011/5/5
Posts: 112


 Re:

From Chris:

Quote:
America is unique in that its Constitution does not allow for ANY international document, law, treaty, agreement or ruling to take preeminence over the Federal or State constitutions.



I am not too sure about that.

The Supremacy Clause

That is the common name given to Article VI, Clause 2 of the United States Constitution, which reads:

“This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.”

Now, check out some of the treaties in the last 50 years. So, if the government cannot pass something through legislation, they can always go for a treaty.

List of U.S. Treaties
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_treaties

And this is what happens when Government, (who wants to be our Nanny) thinks they know better than you how to spend your money or make other decisions for you.

Nanny Steven Chu: “We Are Taking Away a Choice that Lets You Waste Your Own Money!”

http://paulgregorysblog.blogspot.com/2011/07/nanny-steven-chu-we-are-taking-away.html

But, in all of this mess, we still have to trust the Lord,

Mike

 2011/7/19 14:21Profile
SimpleLiving
Member



Joined: 2008/1/11
Posts: 375
Minnesota, USA

 Re:

I'm in agreement with sarahsdream (from another thread). They'll raise the debt ceiling... yet again.

And, as KrispyKreme mentioned, I do believe there's a cyclical element to the economy. However. I also believe a lot of this has been orchestrated, too. I don't think the Dems and Reps are as viciously opposed to one another behind the scenes as they are in front of the cameras. I also believe there's an "elite" group behind them both. Decisions have long been made already. Many of them years, and decades, ago. They just bide their time and let the news play out the soap opera of it all.

Saying that, many folks jump to the "conspiracy theory" accusation, and that's fine. I'm not out to convince anyone. I'm not worried and my faith is in God alone. Nothing can happen without His permission. But, much of what the "conspiracy theorists" have been saying for decades has actually been found to be true, so... each person to their own. In the end, it makes no difference.


_________________
Keith

 2011/7/19 14:56Profile
sarahsdream
Member



Joined: 2011/6/16
Posts: 183


 Re:

Yes, Simpleliving, after all their posturing and bloviating, they will raise it, but the American people will have lost something else. Either higher taxes will be on the menu or more debt, or what is most likely, BOTH.

Regarding conspiracy theories.

Conspiracy theories are always theories until proven as fact and then they are Conspiracy fact.

Like Hitler invading Poland. He conspired to trick Nevil Chamberlain and Britain, which he did successfully and then invaded Poland, anyway.

Conspiracy in and of itself is not a bad word. It is just a word with a definition.

Conspiracies take place all the time. People conspire (secretly) to do something (usually evil) but in the strictest sense of the definition you could conspire to do something good like a surprise birthday party. But normally, conspiracy is used in the negative sense because it implies doing things "in darkness, secretly".

The Pharisees conspired to kill Jesus. No one would believe that was going to happen, but Jesus knew it would.

But you are right Simpleliving, politicians are only puppets of the powerbrokers and uber rich people in the world that run the financial institutions and companies. One of the things that President Kennedy wanted to do was abolish the Federal Reserve: Need I say more?

We all know that Congress has been taken over by lobbyists which the current President promised to ban. You could say, Congress has been taken over by money (bribes) instead of lobbyists. I know that there are good lobbyists and they are needed to combat the bad lobbyists that are trying to get us all to eat genetically modified food or whatever. Good lobbyists are an added voice for the people, but if we had no lobbyists at all,then we could get back to the elected officials being the voice of the people and being accountable to the people. But this is not the case today. They seem to be more accountable to lobbyists. Follow the money.

For instance SEC investigators that are suppose to prosecute Financial Institutions that break the law usually only slap them on the wrist and then they end up working for these big financial firms like Goldman-Sachs. People from Goldman-Sachs then end up working for the government (Treasury Secretary). Everything in politics and business is a revolving door. You scratch my back and I will scratch yours. Senator's aides become lobbyists for Defense Contractors. They all really help each other, despite what they want you to believe.

Representatives and Senators really don't have to worry about the people getting upset with them. They voted in their own retirement program, their own healthcare and their own raises and if they are voted out of Congress by angry people, they can always cash in their ticket with their favorite lobbyist who they helped while they were in office.

It should be no surprise to anyone that most members of Congress are multi-millionaires. Just a fact.

The world is not fair and will never be fair. Jesus knows this and we need to know this, too.

Trust in Him and put no confidence in man.

Dishonest men would take exception with that verse. They would say that our God is cynical and should not be telling us to "put no confidence in men".

No,,, God is realistic and we need to be, too.

Sarah

 2011/7/19 15:38Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4529


 Re:

Hi mikey2...

Quote:

From Chris:
Quote:
America is unique in that its Constitution does not allow for ANY international document, law, treaty, agreement or ruling to take preeminence over the Federal or State constitutions.




I am not too sure about that.

The Supremacy Clause

That is the common name given to Article VI, Clause 2 of the United States Constitution, which reads:

“This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.”

Now, check out some of the treaties in the last 50 years. So, if the government cannot pass something through legislation, they can always go for a treaty.

List of U.S. Treaties
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_treaties



In other words, the "Supremacy Clause," as Article VI - Clause 2 is often referred, states that the federal Constitution is the supreme "law of the land" and, thus, no treaty, law or agreement can supersede the statutes contained within it. Of course, this clause also allows for international treaties to be made -- but they can only be constitutionally legal if they do not supersede or conflict with what is found within the federal Constitution.

The Supremacy Clause gives the Federal Government the power to form international treaties that the States must recognize IF (and only IF) those treaties are constitutional in nature. Moreover, the 10th Amendment indicates that the States have sovereign power over anything not expressly mentioned or implied within the Federal Constitution. Thus, if a liberal state legislature were to pass a law allowing for "homosexual marriages," a more conservative state does not have to recognize it since it is within their power to do so.

Also: If a law or treaty is passed by the Federal Government and is deemed as extra-constitutional act that imposes upon state sovereignty, the State can declare this and make an appeal to the courts that the law as a violation of the 10th Amendment. This is currently the situation in regard to the recent health care legislation and international environmental agreements.

What does this mean?

I brought it up to point out that the US Constitution prohibits international entities (like the United Nations or International Court of Justice) from determining or interfering with federal or state laws. The federal government can make an international treaty as long as it is not unconstitutional. States would then be obliged to observe that law. However, it is common for states to fight certain treaties in courts. The environmental Kyoto Protocol during the 1990s was never passed partially because of such constitutional supremacy questions.

The point is that, under the Constitution, the United States cannot enter into a "confederation" type of international government that would cede powers to an international figure. While trade agreements can be made by our federal government, no decision can be binding unless it is agreed upon by the US government and passes Constitutional scrutiny.

This is different from the European Union, in which many monetary and policy decisions are decided by a central, international institutions. In fact, the EU currently has SEVEN institutions that make policy for the European Union members -- including Court of Justice of the European Union, the European Parliament, the Council of the European Union, the European Commission, the European Council, the European Central Bank and the European Court of Auditors. When a decision is made by these agencies, the member states are obliged to abide by those decisions.

This cannot happen in the United States. If the UN passed a rule that watering your lawn should be illegal and a waste of water, then the US would merely ignore it. The UN does not have the power to meddle in national or state laws UNLESS the elected federal government passes a treaty that agrees to it (and only if it isn't a violation of the Constitution). Thus, an international figure like the Anti-Christ could not, under our Constitution, stand up and take preemption in determining US laws. So, I agree with BrotherTom that the United States -- as we know it -- will probably not exist by that time or cannot participate in any such secession of legal authority.

I hope that this clarifies the point that I was trying to make.


_________________
Christopher

 2011/7/19 16:05Profile





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