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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : A 15-Year Retrospective on the Lordship Controversy (by John MacArthur)

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Oops. I just thought of one more question to ask, Joe.

Thirty yrs ago, I would watch "Dr. Gene Scott" - have you?

 2011/7/9 19:16

Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA


JIG, no worries. The main concern I had was with OJ defaming the ministry of John M, calling him an unsaved heretic, thereby distracting others from the issues raised in the article. My concern is for new believers who may be led astray by OJ, who may develop a prejudice against John M and others who teach and preach sound doctrine.


 2011/7/9 22:58Profile



I see much in Paul's Epistles that point to obedience and this pressing on/in for more and more of Him.

Of course this is in Paul's epistles, but it has nothing to do with the Gospel. Paul deals with many topics, the Gospel is just one of them. The exhortation to press on is for those who have already believed and received the Gospel and are in possession of everlasting life, but pressing on is not the Gospel.

I have posted this before, but again here is a good article on what the Gospel is. Read it a few times, and see the simplicity in it.

In your previous post you wanted to add some things to what Christ has done to ensure your salvation, examples below.
I believe that there is more than "just believe in Him" required for salvation...

I believe that "Loving GOD and others" is absolutely essential for salvation...

I am sure you have heard the old adage, "Christ plus anything equals nothing, and Christ plus nothing equals everything", it applies to those two statements. If you add ANYTHING to faith in His atoning work as justification for your soul you make that faith of none effect. So if you truly believe there is more than "just believe in Him" required for salvation, then that belief would be worth nothing.

As you can see by the great arguments caused by this, there is no such thing as EASY-believism, belief in a work accomplished by the Saviour is very difficult for the natural man, in fact it is well nigh impossible were it not for the enlightening of the Holy Spirit. It is much more difficult than obedience, or endeavouring to keep the commandments. It puts all hope elsewhere than self, and this a natural man will not come to easily. THIS is what makes the way very narrow.

To believe on Him is ALL that is required for salvation, period. This Romans 4 and 5 goes into great depths to teach. Having a love for others insofar as we can discern it in each individual is not essential for salvation, but can be a result of it. There will be love as a result of being loved by Christ, but it may not be and often is not discerned as love by those who see it.


 2011/7/9 23:16


Oops. I just thought of one more question to ask, Joe.

Thirty yrs ago, I would watch "Dr. Gene Scott" - have you?

Nope. 30 years ago we had two channels, and half the time only one came in, so there wasn't much TV. I don't believe he would even have been on either of them though.


 2011/7/9 23:23


Mac is so far from sound that it very well explains his large following, but none to worry Oracio, it is just a bit longer till we see which of us comes out on which side of this one.

Prov 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.


 2011/7/9 23:29

Joined: 2011/4/30
Posts: 99


all we need to do is what jesus said repent and believe

and there will be fruit if one does this

to love your neibour is fruit , and to forgive you brother is fruit

jesus is god is not saying that fruit saves us ,but it is needed to valadate saving faith

faith with out works is dead faith

is that what your saying jig

 2011/7/9 23:33Profile


all we need to do is what jesus said repent and believe

Believing is repenting.

and there will be fruit if one does this

to love your neibour is fruit , and to forgive you brother is fruit

From all appearances several of my neighbours really seem to love each other, two of them have even forgiven each other, problem is that none of them are saved, so how can this FRUIT validate something that doesn't exist?

jesus is god is not saying that fruit saves us ,but it is needed to valadate saving faith

I know a LOT of people who go around trying to hang fruit on a dead tree to give the appearance of life. This is why one will struggle without assurance, because they need something they do to validate their faith rather than believing the promise of God.

Here is what validates faith.

Rom 4:2-3 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

faith with out works is dead faith

Could you please post some examples of works in either your life or the lives around you that PROVE a living faith. Please make it something that unbelievers do not do, because we all know that if they do the same works it does not validate anything.


 2011/7/10 1:00


To set the record straight for the readers of this thread, Paul's gospel INSISTED ON real life obedience to God.

"Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me." (Acts 26:19-21)

Works meet for repentance went with turning to God. To everyone, everywhere. Paul's gospel was in no way different from the gospel the other Apostles preached, though Paul had greater light on certain truths. Yet the core gospel message was the same.

Obedience to Christ does come with believing in him. For if you truly believe in him, he is King and reigns over you and in you. Thus a disciple and a Christian are equated in the scripture. And Abraham's faith obeyed God in real life- and we must have the faith of Abraham. There is a world of difference between surrendering to Jesus and giving him his rightful place as King/Lord over us versus working to earn God's favor. There is also a world of difference between works that are filthy rags of human righteousness versus the work of Christ in a believer through the power of the Holy Spirit.

"By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went." (Hebrews 11:8)

"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:31-32)

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God...... If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby." (Hebrews 12:1-2, 7-11)

 2011/7/10 2:09

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707


Quote: """Could you please post some examples of works in either your life or the lives around you that PROVE a living faith. Please make it something that unbelievers do not do, because we all know that if they do the same works it does not validate anything."""

John 6:26-29 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Our fruit perisheth unless the works we do of the Great MYSTERY revealed to the Saints now that produces fruit that will never parish.

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Our fruit are according to His working in us. That we work the works of Him who was sent, that we might have eternal live in Him.

This is my fruit; that I love Him that is birthed in me and my neighbor as myself, learning from Him how to make this fruit conform to His Image.

o 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Ro 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
1Co 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

This is my fruit

In Christ: Phillip


 2011/7/10 2:24Profile


Hia Joe. Glad to hear that you hadn't received your beliefs from Scott, though it sounds that way sometimes.

Anyhow - in reply to your last post ...

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Joe, I see that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone - but than see those who are saved are indwelled then by His Spirit and the "fruit" [or evidence] that Brother Gazzer speaks of should be there ... especially in the love and forgiveness area.

Besides 1 Corth 13 ...

Rom 8:13,14 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: "but IF ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."
For as many as are "led" by the Spirit of God, 'they are the sons of God.'

1Jn 2:2-6 And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. And "hereby" we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: 'hereby' know we that we are in Him. He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked.

1Jn 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Jn 4:12,13 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 'Hereby' know we that we dwell in Him, and He in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
1Jn 4:20,21 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

No sense going on to post bundles of Scripture - but once a person has come to Christ for Salvation and receives it/Him by faith, they would take on the nature of their new Father and the hunger to please Him comes from His Spirit within. His Spirit indwells us and that new nature shows itself by a hunger for Him and manifests His Nature and desires, the last Adam's and the person that has been regenerated, having been given The Spirit of Creator GOD residing in them will hunger for the things of GOD and will be convicted by The Word of GOD when we step away from what His Spirit shows us, either through the Word of GOD or by His Spirit's 'light' as conviction.

After one is saved - there should be a hunger for and a desire to please Him because we love Him and His Spirit gives us the faith to walk as He did and that's what makes us different than your loving/forgiving neighbors. What we desire after salvation is from Him and for Him .... we are Changed and can decide to either quench His Spirit inside of us or to be led by Him.

We can grieve the Holy Spirit and have our consciences seared as well - even though we have been given His Spirit to give us this new nature/His Nature - we still have freewill to decide whether to be led of Him or continue in a way that continually denies Him by our own choices/decisions/actions.
He's given us everything needed to live up to the light that we have - only our freewill can stand in His way or we can decide to be led by His Spirit and be as He is in the world.
The choice is up to us because He's given us His faith when His Own Spirit entered ours. We decide whether to cooperate with His Spirit and His Word or to not to.

We can't rip these out of our Bibles - Php 2:12,13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own 'salvation' with fear and trembling For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

We still have freewill to either do His Spirit's bidding and obey His Word by His Spirit or not to.

Unbelievers do not have the Spirit of GOD/Christ residing in them, leading, speaking, guiding them into all truth and giving them the desire to be as He is in the world and to obey Him by His Own power. What He calls us to do, in His Word, He enables us to do.
Unbelievers don't have That and That's the difference --- to answer your last question.


 2011/7/10 3:08

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