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ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7489
Mississippi

 Re:

Earl wrote:

Quote:
"At that time Jesus prayed this prayer: “O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding these things from those who think themselves wise and clever, and for revealing them to the childlike." -Matthew 11:25



Excellent!


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2011/6/24 14:34Profile









 Re:

As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God.
Psalm 42.1

This was typed on the fly, so please:
excuse errors,
let me know if there is something wrong with this
or
something is not explained comprehensively enough to understand.
(Lord willing, i'll have time to read through it later.

This come from a broken one,
hart to heart:

H onest
O pen
T ransparent




Jesus asked, then stated,
"...Will God not at all execute avenging of His own chosen: those crying out to Him day and night, though He endures patiently over-and-among them? I put foreward to you that He will in the backdraft, execute vengeance with mighty speed; yet at the Son of Man's arrival, will He find faithfulness on earth?"
(long ago transliterated from Luke 18.7-8)

Am i becoming more persistently faithful in all truth or am i leaning on a man's understanding, be it myself or another?
Are you?



Though at this current point in time, this issue of the Holy Spirit remains not completely settled even in my own mind, realize that my intention is not and never has been to '?PRIVILY?' bring false things foreward FOR ALL TO VIEW . Instead, this issue has been posted here so that (hopefully) those who know better than i (or at least will search the scriptures prayerfully, will assist providing Biblical guidance proving what is good and acceptable for use according to the scriptures. . .
(not some notion invented and traditionalized by man)
. . .and any idea clearly departing from what God's Word says will be left on the doormat before entering discussion on this thread.

It was a wish . . . just a desire that flies in the face of human tendency toward knee jerk reactions. It's never has been expected, yet this hope persists.

i am not trying to push, or force, or even cajole any view on anybody. Instead, this is a reminder to return to the old bright and glittering path of the apostles, prophets, teachers and believer's, an immense cloud of witnesses, who live out the faith once and for all delivered.

Haven't you ever asked yourself why a huge majority of those who say they are following Jesus live lives defeated and beaten down by their own flesh looking for some type of sympathetic interaction with the world, the devil's playground?

This is a clarion call, for a return to prayerfulness, searching and meditation with scripture, coming to the way Jesus and the apostles lived and taught. These are our example of the doctrine of Christ. Only wicked iniquitous idolatrous evil can be found in human tradition, be that societal or in any community living out a world-view that does not begin and end with Christ Jesus as God has revealed in His Prophet, Priest, and King through Bible text.

Ya know, i have known--myself once being one of these--many who have become extremely well versed as to what is thought the Bible really does or doesn't say, who have not really come to be known and know God fully without breaking down, bending the knees, and bowing, praising Him who dwells in light unapproachable and lives to reign evermore.



Have you ever asked yourself how much of what you say you believe is just something you merely affirm in your mind?
Have you ever asked yourself of what you believe is not even found in God's Word?
Have you observed what of your own habits formed are following mere traditions of men invented after those of the first primitive church centuries before already slept in their graves?

i have; and then asked God to search me completely and judge me (in my hope) according to His righteous loving kindness. . .
. . .and still finding out just how stiffnecked i can become even now, just like a spoiled rotten little brat, He surely and swifly in all faithfulness puts me in my place. As well, let the righteous smite me, and i shall be grateful for the kindness.

Praise our Father God whose hand is seen always working towards my conforming into the image of His only begotten Son in whom He is more than completely satisfied!



Are you, or have you been forced into a hedged in place where the only option was to do as God made me see i must do or die?

Here!
Just keep on pray this from one of Jeremiah's prayer in the Bible and see if God will not begin working on you like never before:
" O LORD, I know that the way of man is not
in himself:
it is not in man that walketh
to direct his steps.
O LORD, correct me,
but with judgment;
not in thine anger,
lest thou bring me to nothing.

He will wound you,
but bind you up. . .
. . .then better than heal you.
Your pride will be turned to shame
and humility resulting from Him
will provide you Shalom-shalom.

i am better than no other man, and probably worse than most.

We all who follow Jesus are all of the same stock:
in our flesh Adam
and in our soul Christ.
We are ever learning to overcome by
carrying our cross following Jesus
in every step we take.

Between starting the day prayerfully in the scriptures with praise and repeatedly returning to the Bible, to a major extent in everything done while working in this earth's 'borderland', much of the time, whatever is done, is spent seeking to know God that much more. Often during time spent in this borderland, portions or even whole truths from the threshold of scripture open and are becoming to light. Mostly it is just part of one or two truths about God here and there that flash forth then fade. Until He calls me away from this borderland's daily grind just to be alone and still with Him some more, or an opportunity is squeezed in for a return to the scriptures again checking the things that are just hunches from guesswork, i often feel so much like a fish without water to swim in. i flail and flop around too saints. Yet today, much of what was once bits and pieces is now part of a comprehensive whole in relating to and communing with God.

Still, it is far from me to think that things shown are some private personal revelation. I will not hold the truth in unrighteousness. Freely have i recieved so freely it is given.



What is known, from the reading several different historical sources that what is now known about 'christianities' development through time many times has conflicted with "It is written."
Still, as my interaction here on SI has many times proven, i do not know all the answers and have in spirit and truth gladly recieved correction from other follower's of Jesus here--or wherever i end up doing whatever IRL (from whomever)).

It's known that clearly it takes the work of God's Holy Spirit to convince, convict, and convert us into the image of Christ Jesus through revelation of God's Word to us, Christ in us, the hope of glory. No amount of showing any blind person anything from scriptures will make seen anything without the Spirit of the Lord's work that life.
( i clearly understand that we all have once walked in darkness completely blind, yet by His Spirit, the bright and Morning Star's dawning grows to the brightness of noonday in we who are children of the daylight.)

i am not trying to be different--(just like everyone else?). . .
still, the fact remains:
the Bible clearly shows time and again that
the majority whip is not His desired best:
--the worldwide flood,
--the Tower of Babel,
--Joseph's brothers voting to kill him,
--the golden calf,
--all the murmuring and complaining in the wilderness,
--the children of Israel wanting a king rather than the prophet Samuel,
--account after account of prophet persecuted, afflicted and/or killed,
--the orthodox of Jesus day--(who were much more orthodox than the post-modern neo-orthodoxy of today that calls itself orthodox,)--for the most part rejected Jesus, and likewise, Jesus rejected those who could not hear, or would not look further than in front of their faces about what he was really saying.

In Matthew 7,
when Jesus spoke of those who are false and true to God as
those who will be told to leave his presence and
will not enter the kingdom of heaven because
they do not do the Father's will
--by reason of--
breaking what's instructed in Torah, then
reveals Himself in the parable of
those who either built on the sand or
the solid (bed)rock,
he is speaking only to and about those following him.

WE ALL MUST LOOK AT OURSELVES IN RELATION TO THESE TRUTHS, NOTE WHERE WE STAND, AND MAKE SURE THAT WHAT WE BELIEVE AND DO IS ALL ACCORDING TO GOD's REVEALED WAY
or lose our own souls and never experience eternal life through persisting growth into Jesus, 'knowing' both the Father and the Son.

(There could be more instances cited from both the Old and New Testament if this were the issue of importance on this thread.)




It is so greivous to see unfounded accusations unfold. Does naming something, giving it a label enable one to reach into the heart of the matter?

This afternoon i cried out to God in tears. So many so quick to become accusers (of their very own) brother in Christ and so quickly condemn without showing any Biblical foundation as a basis to support such accusations.

Worse, aside from Christinyou and Jesus-is-GOD, it appears that the majority of respondents are not writing to strengthen our unity in Christ, but rather divide. As well, who but these two have bothered to research what has led to this thread--->see the links provided in the 1st post on this page)?

It doesn't take much at all to start accusing another. Just find something you don't like, brood on it until you get mad, then speak your mind
(or should it be said,". . .speak from the part of the mind not yet consumed in anger's bitterness?")

i don't go around calling anybody a heretic or anything such thing just because it seems to be by my own sense of reasoning or feelings!

(You who think you are so spot-on in the way you are acting would do very poorly in the work of reconciling to Christ those of the various cults and occult factions.)

We given the imperative command to be prepared to give an answer to every person regarding this hope in us.

IT DOES NOT MATTER WHO THE PERSON IS, WHAT OR WHO THEY ARE REPRESENTING, OR EVEN WHAT THEY BELIEVE :
If they still walk the earth there is hope for them as God's mercy still remains with them.
IF WE ARE ONLY NAME-CALLING THEN BRAVELY RUNNING AWAY,
WE SHOULD LOOK IN THE MIRROR AND ASK OURSELF:
AM I FOLLOWING JESUS IN HIS COMMAND
TO FULFILL HIS GREAT COMMISSION
OF RECONCILING THE WORLD TO HIMSELF?




If i am beating a dead horse, how?
Either this is part of the doctrine of Christ
or
it is something other than this, and is not His teaching and should nevermore be discussed.
(If anything that is taught denies the supremacy and Lordship of our master, Jesus Christ, it is from a lying spirit and not of God at all.)
On this note,
please explain how the spirit of Christ is anything other than His spirit?
How is the spirit of the Lord anything other than the Lord's spirit?

Now as time passes, more and more scriptures become more congruent fitting together that much better in the understanding of scripture God has provided.
Still, i have questions.






Below are provided the initial set of verses
that were brought to rememberance
while meditating on John 14.1 through 16.16:

I.
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
II Corinthians 3.14-18

II.
For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

We have also a more sure word of prophecy;
whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but. . .

. . .holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
II Peter 1.16-21

III. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for. . .

. . .the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Revelation 19.9-10
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus-is God,

Thank you for your input.

Regarding the use of the pronoun 'he':
In english, when translating from other languages, (be they romantic, germanic, ancient, etc.,) a definite article proceeds the word in either masculine, feminine or neuter tense. Though english language does not have the various gender/tenses of the word "the" used in these other languages, it often substitutes a pronoun.

In ancient Greek, the word 'spirit' more often than not in classical Koine texts means either breath or wind, and less often is the word 'spirit' translated from this Greek word. The definite article for this word is masculine.

If it is a female ghost or feminine spirit, it's article is he/the.
If that word is translated to be breath, it is still found with the article he/the.
He/the is also the article for breath and wind.

Masculine, feminine, or neuter articles cannot be used to determine actual gender in the majority of cases as most all of these nouns can be recognized as a thing/it in english.

We know that this is not a fast and hard rule regarding the spirit being a 'he' (even in the KJV Bible); because (in accord with greek linguistics and thought) the Holy Spirit is usually translated as "it(self)" in Romans 8.16, and not "himself."

This may be my own failing, but personally, i have alot of trouble thinking of anything that is an 'it' to be a 'self' as well. Further, knowing the Lord is a man, even so i refer to His Holy Spirit as He.

(Personal belief regarding this one issue is that we humans tend to better understand God through anthropomorphizing Him, though in His Holy Goodness and Glory, he is so far beyond our petty knowledge of how we understand Him. Being not only the one who created both male/female and genderless neutrality, he contains all these thing within himself, is not any of these things, and reigns infinitely above and beyond our human ideosynchratic way of giving any physical characteristics to God, just to better comprehend Him. . .
". . .but what about Jesus? Jesus is God!"
eKeep in remembrance, in and through Jesus Christ, God emptied Himself of all that He is, yet remained Himself (John 3.13; Phillipians 2.6-7).

This is the mystery of godliness:
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifest in the flesh,
JUSTIFIED IN THE SPIRIT,
seen of angels,
preached unto the Gentiles,
believed on in the world,
received up into glory. "
I Timothy 3.16



This whole growing Biblical doctrine of Christ has nothing to do with Macedonianism. i have never believed that the Holy Spirit was created at all, much less subordinate to either the Son or the Father. Rather, God's spirit is what God is, as He always is, has been, and ever will be.

Further, from what has been seen occur in the current so called orthodoxy, there is very little stock put in it, and this issue certainly does not advocate any ecumenical council whatsoever.

What gives a mere man the right to call God's spirit
--known as: the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, this spirit being the Lord--
a person separate and distinct yet united as one with our Father and Brother. . .

. . .when the spirit of God identified by all the various titles in Ya's sacred writ, from Genesis to Revelation, all point to the fact that this (holy) spirit of God manifests in many various ways as the spirit OF the Lord Jesus Christ.

(Form is not the issue and neither is whether we have his name right. What is most important is where is the core of our affections<--heart-- in relation(ship) to(wards) God, for without faith(fulness) in God, it is impossible to satisfy Him. What are our thoughts and intentions in seeking God?)

How can this be put towards better understanding of what has been learned from scriptures here?

The Holy Spirit manifesting in this physical realm is none other than through Jesus Christ's spirit. This is not a seperate personality, but rather from the core of His being.

According to John 16.13-16, the Holy Spirit is realized in us as the unity of both the Father and the Son. . .
. . .yet the Holy Spirit comes into us through and as the spirit of the Lord : the Father being one with Him according to John 14.10-26

Because God is spirit, however we recognize Him, if what we reason and/or feel to be true does not agree with His revelation of Himself through the Word of God, both in scripture with the living Christ Jesus, logos with rhema, we are decieving ourselves and lying to everybody else about it.

Because the Son is in the Father and the Father in the Son, having the Holy Spirit is of and from both the Father and the Son. Our Lord is our source of His spirit, but in recieving Jesus spirit we recieve the Father as well, both being united in his/the Holy Spirit.

Finally, Jesus-is-God, it's not that i don't see the Holy Spirit as a seperate 'personification' of God. i just do not see God's spirit as anything other than Christ's expression of the Father in us.

The Holy Spirit in and rhrough us is the essential life expression of Jesus Christ and nobody else.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Everyone,

By the Spirit of Christ the Lord
guided through the letter of the truth in His Torah
The second most important consideration here is
to love my neighbor as myself,
even as God states throughout chapter 19 of Leviticus,
from the heart and not based on appearances.




. . .ve Da'ath Shalom. . .
en agapeo,
Towards unity in His body,
Agape, hope, and faithfulness,

gregg

 2011/6/24 15:08









 Re:

Hi Brother, I'm just now finding your post. I read most of it and will read the rest. Been a busy day.

Two verses come to mind -

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles;
which is **Christ in you**, the hope of glory:

1Jn 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God,
**God dwelleth in him, and he in God.**

Who dwells 'in' us in these two verses? - "He".

Now going back to John 16 -
Joh 16:13,14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.


I do understand your point with the pronouns but from those other two verses above - there's no differentiating between GOD/Christ/The Spirit. Through-out the whole of the Word, these three are used interchangably - more than we sometimes notice and I'd love to discuss that point.
That's where those who try to explain "the trinity" get tongue tied. These three Are ONE.

I don't want to post on the fly neither, because this is my favorite topic of all - "Who GOD is" ... so I probably won't get it all out in one post - but I would like to talk what's on my heart about HIM. :)


I always seem to ask folks - "Who walked and talked in the Garden with Adam? and where was "Jesus" at that moment?

For now, I need to get off the computer for a short while, but would love to hear some thoughts on this I've posted so far.

Wish we weren't always fighting against "time" and - other things that need doing.

Appreciated your post. We need to talk - Amen!

 2011/6/24 18:20









 Re:

Hi again Brother. I'm sure doing this piece meal, but it's helping me to do it this way. I'll wait for your replies on both of these, if you do find something in my understanding worth replying to.

More about GOD - in the creation -

Psa 33:6 "By the word" of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them "by the breath" [ruach] of his mouth.

Psa 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy "spirit" [ruach], they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

Psa 148:5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for He 'commanded', and they were created.

Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens 'alone'; that spreadeth abroad the earth 'by myself'

Hebrews 1:10-12 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of "thine hands": they shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; and as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but Thou art the same, and Thy years shall not fail.


GOD uses all terms for Himself as to how all things were created ... by His Spirit, by His Hands, by His Word and then we read in the N.T. it is by 'Jesus' - so by His Spirit, by His Hands, by His Word [Jesus] are the three in One GOD - Elohim [plural]. "- - begining GOD created the heaven and the earth."
The CO-'Equality' of the Three in ONE.


As far as why I have problems with using the term "persons", I'll have to do another one for that, but if I don't see three "persons" in the Garden and don't see three persons after the New Jerusalem comes down out of Heaven after the millenial reign - I can't justify using the term "persons" - though I do believe that GOD is as Tripartite as we are body, soul and spirit - but I don't like when folks pigeon hole people's beliefs before they get the chance to fully explain - as in yelling 'Modalism' or such.

Thanks!
Will post again.

 2011/6/24 19:46
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

God is a community.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2011/6/24 22:18Profile









 Re:


Well Brother Gregg, I don't believe that what you believe (so far) is a "salvation issue" and never did. I even believe that there are those in the Jesus Only crowd that are saved.
Understanding the Triunity of GOD is very mind boggling and we either take our view from the traditional writings of 'wherever' or we begin a life-long search on our own of just the Scriptures, but that still leaves many of us thinking differently on His Nature - no question about it.
I forget where I posted a prayer by some famous named man who wanted badly to understand the Triune Nature of GOD. I believe he was one of our famous hymn writers and his prayer was long and heart wrenching to me because I felt I had gone through every bit of it as well. Wish I could remember where that prayer is and if it was by Watts or who.

Anyhow - I wanted to leave a quote from a commentary that's in e-sword, though I don't particularly agree with the present tense 'distinction' that this commentator makes by his words, I do see an end of the "distinction" coming.

Here it is ...

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

1Co 15:28 -
""The Son also himself be subject" - When the administration of the kingdom of grace is finally closed; when there shall be no longer any state of probation, and consequently no longer need of a distinction between the kingdom of grace and the kingdom of glory; then the Son, as being man and Messiah, shall cease to exercise any 'distinct' dominion and God be all in all: there remaining no longer any distinction in the persons of the glorious Trinity, as acting any distinct or separate parts in either the kingdom of grace, or the kingdom of glory, and so the one infinite essence shall appear undivided and eternal."


and when do we see this happening ...


"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
He that overcometh shall inherit all things;
and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."




I've expressed my beliefs here before about when The Word of GOD became the Son of GOD and few agree because it's not in the writings of the Reformation era, but I haven't been burnt at the stake as yet.

I do stand on the Shema and will always see GOD as One GOD.

The only group that I truly have problems with are those who do not believe in the Deity of Christ.

I've read your post and coincidently - actually did a search to find that verse Ps 42:1 last night because that's how I was feeling and praying.

He'll be back soon enough. No more divisions and no more disunity then.
In the meantime - I enjoy rejoicing at truth and contending for the faith once delivered.

It doesn't matter if we have this down perfectly because neither do most commentators that everyone reads.

Praying for Blessings from Him to all of us poor humans this weekend, with His Love & Shalom for all - Amen.

 2011/6/25 0:55
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3417
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re:

Quote:
Jesus-is-God wrote:
I even believe that there are those in the Jesus Only crowd that are saved.


I haven’t read the whole thread but I agree with this statement!! Amen sister!!

I worked with a Jesus Only couple about 20 years ago and I was talking with the husband and found out that Jesus Only believes and receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit!!! Here is my enlightenment from a conversation with the husband, “The Lord baptized me with the Holy Spirit and I speak in tongues and you have been baptized and speak in tongues too...if God has given us both that gift, we can’t both be that far off, can we? So God must not see a huge difference between the two!”

God bless you,
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2011/6/25 1:15Profile









 Re:


Sis Lysa, I almost wrote that "I even believe that there are those in the Trinitarian crowd that are saved too." :)

It's been a long and emotional day, so now that I'm wasted, I can get silly. I know for certain that 'you' wouldn't mind if I do. A merry heart does good like a medicine: but a broken spirit dries the bones. I don't need to dry up any more than I already am and btw, I have unquenchable sense of humor as well ... but don't get me going too much - they'll accuse me of being in the holy laughter crowd or accuse me of having a spirit of levity.
I do. :D
A merry heart maketh a cheerful countenance: but by sorrow of the heart the spirit is broken.

Don't need any more broken parts neither.

GOD Bless you!!

 2011/6/25 1:37
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4526


 Re:

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."
- Matthew 28:19 (KJV)

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
- Matthew 28:19 (NIV)

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."
- Matthew 28:19 (NASB)

I think that the key word here is "AND."

"...in the name of the Father, AND of the Son, AND of the Holy Ghost."

The Greek word for "and" in both instances is "καί" (kai). When used within this sort of sentence structure, the word literally means "and, in addition, also." In the KJV, the word "kai" is translated as "and" 8,173 times along with "also" 514 times.


_________________
Christopher

 2011/6/25 1:58Profile









 Re:

Excellent verse for this particular topic, Chris.

 2011/6/25 2:58





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