Did Lot Fear Friendship With God More Than He Feared Compromise? (2)

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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : Did Lot Fear Friendship With God More Than He Feared Compromise?

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Gideons
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Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 474
Virginia

Re:

Brother Daryl,

Excellent analysis. I see a parallel between Lot and the modern day church in America. Until we get back to what Jesus wants versus our own wants, there's not much hope for change. Lot was always interested in making the next deal for himself. So the question I must ask myself is whether I'm using God to get what I want or submitting myself to His desires for my life.

Quote:

Is justification, the declaration that a man is right with God, a lifelong declaration of the judge, or an 'as at that time' utterance? Does it pertain to past offences or does it give future-proof immunity for life?

Brother Ron, I treading on this can of worms here very carefully if that's possible for someone as clumsy as myself. :-o

I think of a number of chosen men that ended up not following Jesus at the end of their lives. Look at the life of Solomon, Saul, and Judas Iscariot. They decided to no longer follow Christ and went their own way at the end of their lives. Did that grant them future proof immunity?

I don't think so and there's a number of other people I could have mentioned in addition to the ones I listed. As you may have noticed, I'm not Calvinistic. I'm not criticizing those who are but own view after years of searching on the topic is that one can lose their salvation.

And yet another can of worms is opened. ;-)

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Ed Pugh

2004/12/6 7:44

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philologos
Member

Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

Re:

Quote:

I don't think so and there's a number of other people I could have mentioned in addition to the ones I listed. As you may have noticed, I'm not Calvinistic. I'm not criticizing those who are but own view after years of searching on the topic is that one can lose their salvation.

That's not another 'can of worms'; it was the exact can I had in mind! :-D

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Ron Bailey

2004/12/6 8:01

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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

Re:

Quote:

Does it pertain to past offences or does it give future-proof immunity for life?

I recall Carl Bangs, a local theologian formerly with Nazarene Theological Seminary (the man who wrote the works on Jacobus Arminius titled "Arminius" A Treatise on the Dutch Reformation) saying that it is only possible to have a present assurance of present salvation. He rejected the notion of a present assurance of final salvation. This is a real sticking point with a lot of believers, but I believe it is quite consistent with the multiplied warnings of scripture. There are too many ifs to ignore.

I have a cousin who is schooled in modern Calvinist view (not to be confused with Calvin's Calvinism) and we discuss this almost every time we meet. Many do not realize that both Calvinism and Arminianism have grown well beyond their original contexts. There are issues on the table now that were not discussed in their day. However, where the former TULIP ended with the "perseverance" of the Saints, modern eternal security believers have changed that "perseverance" to a different word; preservation. instead of saying the saints will persevere as evidence of their election; they say that by virture of their having trusted Christ as Savior they are guaranteed to be preserved by God positionally righteous and holy regardless of how one may live. Now, personally I don't mind if a person wants to believe that and they love God and walk in the Spirit; it's when that doctrine is used as a crutch to keep sinning that I have a problem with it.

Simple probability ought to have a chance to weigh in on this topic. Say that there were 100 passages in scripture that seemed to indicate eternal security and 10 that indicated otherwise. There is a 10 to 1 statistical probability that eternal security were legit. Would you rest your immortal soul on that? Would you risk that type of Russian Roulette with your soul? How about 100 to 1? How about 10,000 to 1? How about 100,000,000 to 1? Beloved, if their was even a shadow of a doubt that this doctrine is false we ought to think about our immortal souls.

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Robert Wurtz II

2004/12/6 8:12

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philologos
Member

Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

Re:

Quote:

it is only possible to have a present assurance of present salvation. He rejected the notion of a present assurance of final salvation.

Thanks, Robert, straight into my notebook!

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Ron Bailey

2004/12/6 9:05

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dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132

Re: Noted

Thats good stuff.

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D.Miller

2004/12/6 15:15

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Gideons
Member

Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 474
Virginia

Re:

The way I would phrase this is that I would ask a rhetorical question which is "How can I be a follower of Christ if I'm not really following Him?"

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Ed Pugh

2004/12/6 15:55

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dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132

Re: Agreed

See this is my point exactly, however some people have very little accountability because they have only been given limited light or understanding to walk in. In charismatic circles what bothers me is the hyper spirituality I see where they neglect the plain teachings of scripture. Here's an example ---- James2 I have actually heard individuals teach that the helping of poor brothers and sisters should be Lead by the Spirit and they keep it in the etheral realm where the hearer can be free from faith with works by saying they didn't feel lead by the Spirit to help. I generally teach in the churches that you don't need the mind of Christ on a matter where the Word of God is prefectly clear.

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D.Miller

2004/12/6 16:10

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