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Svineklev
Member



Joined: 2004/12/14
Posts: 74


 Re:

Ron--

[i]Everyone[/i] here is on the side of the text. And yes, the text includes no solas. But there are only two ways to interpret this verse regarding justification (the two I gave previously):

1. For by Grace (and nothing else) are ye saved through faith (and nothing else).

This is the general Protestant take on it.

2. For by Grace (and something else) are ye saved through faith (and something else).

This is the general (Tridentine) Roman Catholic take on things (the something else being the merit of sanctified works or participating in the sacramental means of grace).

There are no other options I'm aware of. To my mind, not choosing simply implies one doesn't think it means anything at all. How is [i]that[/i] text honoring?

I suppose you [i]can[/i] hold it all as a mystery. If that's true--say so. That's more than fine. But don't imply anyone else is not following the text.

--Eric

 2005/1/8 17:24Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
And of course, we wouldn't be able to agree with you that it "all boils down to how you respond to the Holy Ghost." We believe it all boils down to Him...and not us.



Hi Eric,

Well, we can agree to disagree. I will always view my response to the Holy Spirit as my responsibility. I have one duty to do for which I am worthy of no thanks and that duty is to yield to the Holy Ghost. Yeilding, technically, is not something I do, it is something I stop doing. I must cease and desist from resisting Him and allow Him to do what He wants to do in bringing me to salvation.

If I resist the Holy Ghost, it is my fault and I will rightly suffer for it. If I submit to the Holy Ghost- it is still God's grace that saved me. But God's grace is over all.

God Bless,

-Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/1/8 19:55Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Eric
Let's play some algebra...

salvation=s
grace=g
faith=f

you have produced two formulae
s=g + 0
s=f + 0

according to normal logic that would mean that g=f. I don't think you want to say that do you?

I have a single formula
s=g+f

I don't see logically how we can put the words 'only' and 'and' into the same sentence, unless what follows the 'and' is zero. I do not believe faith is zero. I believe it is absolutely necessary in order to please God, but I also believe it is impossible without grace. A grace, however, than enables but does not compel.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/1/9 7:17Profile
Svineklev
Member



Joined: 2004/12/14
Posts: 74


 Re:

Robert--

We don't disagree on the necessity to submit to the Holy Spirit, nor that it is our responsibility to do so.

We only disagree on when one is able to accomplish such a feat. The Reformed believe one must be regenerated first before one can respond. We don't believe you [i]can[/i] stop resisting unless your heart is circumcised. Babies don't "submit" to circumcision...they have no choice in the matter. Whether they like it or not, they are part of the family.

But as a part of the family, they certainly have responsibilities.

--Eric

 2005/1/10 16:36Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
We don't believe you can stop resisting unless your heart is circumcised.



Ah, circumcision of the heart. I took a beating over that in class once at the instutute (not a literal one).

In our industry we have computer chips that are 'powered on' from an external source. They cannot function unless they are powered up. I think of God's dealing with us as sinners in that sense. The grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared unto all- yet not all have rightly responded. God gives the opportunity to rightly respond by supplying the necessities for us to make a right response if we are willing. If we respond to that grace rightly by exercising our measure of faith (that He has provided also by His grace) then we will be regenerated and justified and sanctified by the Holy Spirit. Our heart will be circumcised, etc.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/1/10 16:57Profile
Svineklev
Member



Joined: 2004/12/14
Posts: 74


 Re:

Ron--

I'm not sure how algebraic we would want to become with theology, but it should generally follow the basic principles of logic.

It is not entirely accurate to maintain that Salvation equals Grace plus Faith. (Justification comes by Grace through Faith...and those prepositions are important. Salvation is something that was, is, and will be. It includes the notions of Election, Calling, Sanctification, Perseverance, and Glorification.)

But for the sake of simplicity, I can go along with your formulations.

In such a case, I would be proposing:

s = (g+0) + (f+0)

When simplified, this yields: s = g + f.

Which, as far as I can understand, does not differ from your summation.

The "alones" (the zeros) are there merely to differentiate Protestant formulations from Roman Catholic:

s = (g+sacraments) + (f+works).

I doubt that you espouse this second formula. That makes you someone who believes in Justification by Grace alone through Faith alone. But for some reason you'd rather not admit it.

I hope you can see how "only" and "and" do indeed fit into the same sentence. By no means am I making Faith into a "zero." Obviously, "without faith, it is impossible to please God." And without Grace there would be no Faith.

Moreover, I believe it was Luther himself who said we are Justified by Faith alone, but not by a Faith that is alone. Works are the necessary outworking of our sanctification. Roman Catholics conflate the concepts of Justification and Sanctification, confusing a lot of their rank and file (though I have known quite a few thoroughly Evangelical RC's).

It is a misunderstanding to say that Calvinists believe we are compelled by Grace. Grace enlivens and enables those who were previously unable. Of our own free will we choose to follow God...but it is a will that has been set free and is no longer captive to sin. There is no need to coerce someone who has been set free to follow his or her redeemer. It is the only natural thing to do. It is strange to call something a "choice" when the options are the leg irons of sin...or the wings of Christ.

--Eric

 2005/1/10 17:18Profile
Svineklev
Member



Joined: 2004/12/14
Posts: 74


 Re:

Robert--

That's it exactly! We differ only as to the order. The Reformed believe we [i]have[/i] no "measure of faith" to "rightly exercise" until we are first regenerated.

Our order means that God himself determines who will respond. We trust him implicitly for this. Why shouldn't we?

Your order means that every single individual is given enough grace to choose between life and death...and man determines who will respond. (Nonetheless, grace is absolutely necessary throughout the whole process. And God is given the glory.) But you wish to make sure that no one is left behind unnecessarily.

My problem with your order has mostly to do with the predicament of man. I believe God is--and needs to be--more helpful. And Christ by no means will leave anyone he has died for behind.

--Eric

 2005/1/10 17:39Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
It is not entirely accurate to maintain that Salvation equals Grace plus Faith. (Justification comes by Grace through Faith...and those prepositions are important. Salvation is something that was, is, and will be. It includes the notions of Election, Calling, Sanctification, Perseverance, and Glorification.)

I was just interpreting the verse [b]For by grace (g)are ye saved(s) through faith(f); and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Eph 2:8 KJV)[/b]
or as I formulated it
s = g + f

Quote:
[i]Eric writes:[/i] When simplified, this yields: s = g + f



I think that's about as close to agreement as we are likely to get, unless I missed something.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/1/10 17:55Profile





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