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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The ROCK men fall upon being broken to pieces vs those whom it falls upon (ground to powder)

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lylewise
Member



Joined: 2009/2/20
Posts: 494
Celina, Texas

 The ROCK men fall upon being broken to pieces vs those whom it falls upon (ground to powder)

I would like to solicit some additional insight into the meaning of the following two verses presented in scripture regarding the Rock of offense. With my wife and kids, I sit down every week and have a small home bible study. We have been looking at God=Christ as the Rock in the OT and NT. I am having a little trouble with the two verses Mathew 21:44 and Luke 20:18 (both below). It seems as though there may be two interpretations common to these verses. One holding to the consequences of rejecting Christ and so an image is to be pictured likening it to the formalized stoning sentence carried out in Israel(different from the stoning of Stephen and Paul). This dealing with a platform from which one would fall from a given height and be broken to pieces on the rocks below. If that fall did not end in death, a large Rock was then used to crush the head of the one sentenced and finish the execution. The second view holding to the thought that to be broken is to be humbled so that salvation can be worked. For those rejecting God, they would be ground to powder.

Mathew 21:44 "He who falls upon this stone will be severely hurt but he on whom it falls will be ground to powder".

Luke 20:18 "Everyone who falls upon that stone will be broken to pieces but he on whom it falls will be crushed".

I would be thankful for any wisdom shared.



 2011/4/4 4:31Profile









 Re: The ROCK men fall upon being broken to pieces vs those whom it falls upon (ground

that precious bit of Scripture, always reminded of how Evan Roberts, in the 1904 Welsh revival, would just be in tears, and pleading with God, "Bend us LORD, bend us".

i always used to pray, "break me LORD, break me".....and He sure did, thats a prayer one best be ready for.

i had heard a story regarding the "cornerstone", that when the First Temple was being built, they quarried a cornerstone, that when put in, didnt seem to match, to work, so they pitched it.....but later had to retrive it, because it fit perfectly....

i forget where and when i heard this, but i remembered the onus of it.

i could write more, but i sure would like to pray over those Verses. neil

 2011/4/4 9:54
lylewise
Member



Joined: 2009/2/20
Posts: 494
Celina, Texas

 Re:

Brother Neil, Thanks for the thought on the cornerstone. It is indeed enriching to see the consistancy of this Rock throughout scripture. If this scripture speaks to the breaking necessary that brings one to repentance then I too have been broken. Does that then cotrast the latter part of the verse with the one who is to be destroyed for eternity or is it a possibility that both verses speak to the wrath and eternal destruction that comes upon those who reject our Lord? You can see two possibilities and there does seem to be two camps of interpretation. The one that speaks to eternal destruction both by breaking some and grinding others seems redundant unless they speak to degrees of punishment? Regardless it seems as though many hold to this. I would tend to agree with the first part speaking to the necessity of being broken from this world but I do not want to read into what it may not be.

 2011/4/4 15:05Profile









 Re:

Hi lylewise,

I think the Holy Spirit can use the words in these verses as He chooses in several ways.

What He said in Matthew 21:44 is actually a crescendo at the end of two very big musical stanzas (parables). It all starts at (maybe before) Matt 21:28.

In context, and historically, this is what the Pharisees thought about what Jesus was saying.

Matt 21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard His parables, they perceived that he spake of them. (Yep, they were right and don't you think they were indignant and offended?)

Why did they think this?

Look at the parable just before it, when Jesus spoke of two sons.

One son balked at His Father's command (word), but then repented (he fell on the stone, repentance) and the other that said he would do his father's word, but then did not (lip service).

Which one, Jesus says, did the will of His Father.

Jesus follows with this:

Matt 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

Matt 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

He underscores the lack of repentance.

So, here it is clear that Jesus is trying to tell us the importance of repentance.

The next parable He speaks of, He is alluding to all the prophets that He sent and how they were rejected and killed because they were faithful messengers of God.

Matt 21:35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.

And then He says, that the Son was sent and they knew He was the Heir, and yet slew Him anyway.

Matt 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
Matt 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

Look at what the Pharisees said in response. They were blind and could not see that Jesus was talking about them.

Matt 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

Then Jesus brings it home with Matthew 21:42-44. This is the crescendo I am talking about.

Matt 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Here Jesus gets real direct.

Matt 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Matt 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Back then, He was talking about the Pharisees and they knew it all too well. They gave God lip service and rejected His prophets and by doing this rejected HIM, His Word and His Son. Did not Jesus say to SAUL, "Why do you persectutest me"?

I don't see how anything has changed. He is speaking to all men in all ages.

If we fall on Him and are broken (contrite, repented), then we receive mercy as the publicans and harlots He spoke of back then who repented. Otherwise, if we remain unbending, prideful, stiffnecked and rejecting of Him (like the Pharisees) and His Word, then the Rock will fall on us one day in judgment.

The other way I see the Holy Spirit applying this is according to Hebrews 12 and I have heard testimonies of this and even apply it to my own life this way.

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

But, this is something people have to receive from the Spirit. I personally see it as God "falling" on us to break us but not destroy us. To break us of pride, to chasten us.

Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous:

Kind of like a ROCK falling on you.

And that is why He speaks to His Church, thus:
Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

And what happens to the Pharisee, that will NOT BE BROKEN?

I don't want to find out.

777





 2011/4/4 16:56









 Re:

Agree with Anonymous 777. Very important insights. Here are some additional scriptures about the falling on Christ in repentance or him falling on you in wrath. Psalm 2 is a direct prophecy about Christ and the call of the gospel which is also quoted in Acts 4.

Psalm 2:7-12:

7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

10Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

11Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

12Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Psalm 50:22-23:

22 Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest I tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver.

23 Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me: and to him that ordereth his conversation aright will I shew the salvation of God.

Romans 2:4-5:

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;






 2011/4/4 17:14
lylewise
Member



Joined: 2009/2/20
Posts: 494
Celina, Texas

 Re:

G.one and 777 thank you for your comments. I do see some of these scriptures that lend themselves to repentance and yes when did Christ inherit a righteous people unless He first made them righteous by His righteousness? The simplest things can some times be overlooked. I never truly considered the thought that He received the heathen. Rather that His Father gave to Him a Bride. I knew the Bride must be redeemed and I know the state of a man's heart prior to salvation, but to be given the heathen humbles me greatly and makes me love Him all the more. Thank you for sharing that.

ybiC

 2011/4/5 9:07Profile









 Re: The ROCK men fall upon being broken to pieces vs those whom it falls upon (ground


I see it as a blessed thing to fall on the Rock, as a demonstration of brokenness, rather than the Rock actively breaking the person (although He does, gently and truthfully).

Also, on the Rock grinding to powder, I believe Daniel 2:45 is relevant, in its context.

 2011/4/5 18:31









 Re:

The way that I would tie these very important verses into life in a practical way is to say that many may be reading this that could very well be undergoing a very harsh trial that may seem so harsh that they are bitter and angry at God. You have been betrayed, been offended and hurt and maybe even think that you have brought the chastisement of God upon yourself. Many of us can relate. What is important is what we have learned about those experiences.

I learned that:

Mat 12:20 A bruised reed shall He not break, and smoking flax shall He not quench, till He send forth judgment unto victory.

You may feel like this bruised reed right now, that is on its last legs of life. Your hope and faith seem to have taken a death blow and you don't think you can stand anymore. You feel like all of your strength is gone. The cares of life have crushed you and you feel so crippled that you wonder if you will ever love God again, or walk in victory. You are at the point where you could care less about your testimony and wondering if walking with God is really even worth it.

He will not deal that "final blow" that finally breaks you.

Those of you, who have never been there before, may be surprised to know that I am talking about something that is part of the Christian walk. If I was told this in my 2nd year with the Lord, I would not have understood.

When you first came to Him it was because you recognized that you were lost and doomed without Him and He was your only salvation from the wrath to come. Nothing was working in your life and you came to the end of your rope and reached out to Jesus.

But then, as we walk with Him, we have to come to the end of our rope again, don't we? We have to learn that He cares not a wit for anything that we can offer Him. He wants our heart, our devotion, our obedience. He does not want our ways or our thoughts on the matter. He wants us to learn His ways and His thoughts. This always comes as a crushing blow to us when we have believed with all our heart that what we are doing for God was authored by Him. And then we find out that we were deceived by our own heart, lusts, and imagination.

We feel crushed by the Rock. All of OUR goals and dreams are shattered. It is the Lord, trying to grow us up. He wants us all to grow into mature sons and daughters of God, who understand spiritual things, who know and understand Him. It seems the bigger we grow OUR REPUTATION or our kingdom, the harder the fall is going to be. That is one aspect. Causing our own fall by our own pride. And if you are His son and not a bastard, you will fall if you don’t voluntary fall on Him first. He will make sure of that. All of God’s children are partakers of His chastisement.

Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Another aspect is Satan using others to bruise us. Here again, PRIDE is at work. If we receive the bruise because we were offended in our heart, and refuse to forgive, we will not progress in the Christian walk until we deal with that situation. Ten years can go by, but you will not have progressed until you deal with what took place 10 years ago. God will take us back to that place that broke fellowship with Him until we make things right with man and God. God is not interested in validating our self-justification. He doesn’t take sides.

When you cannot get your bearings, and are no longer confident about anything you understand about God anymore and the once raging fire of love and zealousness in you has gone out, God will not damn you for this and finally "snuff you out". Because this is the time in your life when He can do something of eternal value. This is a good place to be. He has been waiting for you. You have finally come to a place where you can HEAR HIM SPEAKING TO YOU.

FINALLY! After all you’re EFFORTS and religious activity.

Job was very bitter at God. Not only did he complain to God about his own situation but he complained about his friends to God.

James 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

The LORD IS VERY PITIFUL AND OF TENDER MERCY!! Good thing for us, eh?

Sending judgment to victory means that the Lord will purge you of your faults, your false doctrines that you hold onto as true and other errors, especially your false understanding of who He is, His character and attributes and HOW HE WANTS YOU TO WALK WITH HIM. Not how men want you to walk with THEM.

He will bring us the victory we so very desperately need, but it will be on His terms, not ours.

Are you ready and willing to accept correction? You have to be ready and willing. That is one reason you have been brought to this place. It is what God did to Moses in the back side of the desert. He grinds us down. Moses was ground down to a place where he no longer had any AMBITION and almost no life in him. An 80 year old man. Previously, at 40 years old, he was so cocksure that HE KNEW HOW to deliver the Israelites. HE THOUGHT HE KNEW God's will and ways. He had a lot to learn, and indeed, don't we all.

And Moses was 120 years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated (Deut. 34:7).

Well, what do you think? Did Moses learn something? Evidently, he did something right, SOMETHING WHICH, many of us are NOT DOING RIGHT. Moses did not arrive at his destination by doing it his way, did he?

What are God’s Words to US?

How do we do it RIGHT?

2Pet 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pet 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
"lust" means "any unrestrained or unguided desire, passion, or ambition".

We all have NEEDS. We need food and shelter. We also need love and companionship. We need virtue and a whole lot more. The knowledge of God gives us the right kind of wisdom and guidance in how to obtain these things. Many of our problems in life stem from the fact that we are trying to OBTAIN MANY THINGS in this life guided by our own “knowledge” rather than the knowledge of God. We even try to obtain spirituality from our own knowledge. As we pursue these things in life without being guided by the knowledge of God we will continue to to be “crushed” time after time. We will come face to face, time after time with a house that is built on sand. The winds of life will blow and our house will fall down. How many times does this have to happened before we STOP and LISTEN TO HIM?

Number 1
The 1st thing we have to do is be:

TEACHABLE - not everyone who claims to have "faith” gets the help that they want from God.

Number 2
Overcome the "NOISE" of the Enemy which constantly assaults you with accusations and threats and ideas that contradict God's Word and His faithfulness about WHO HE IS and WHO YOU ARE IN HIM.

Number 3
Close your ears to all the Compromisers and Cowardly around you. They abound. Don't run with the Complacent, or the blame shifters, or those filled with excuses. They are also abound and especially in your own "church". Reject "explanations" and imaginations and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God. (2 Cor 10:5). Fellowship with those who know Him and are not concerned about religious activity, pleasing men or outward appearances. Pray to the Lord to bring people to you who know Him in the fellowship of His sufferings.

Number 4
STUDY THE TEACHINGS OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST and DO WHAT HE SAYS!

If you have to START ALL OVER AGAIN, then do it!! God's Word only becomes real as you DO IT. HEAR IT AND DO IT.
Get in the Word, Live in the Word and turn a deaf ear to the voices of "strangers". If you are going to build your house on the Rock, stop listening to man! You will never build your house, if you are always looking for a man to tell you how to do it. The Lord is your TEACHER and the MASTER BUILDER. (Of course, God sets teachers in the church, but test everything your hear)

TEST EVERYTHING with the SCRIPTURES. EVERYTHING!! Learn how to do it.

Number 5
GET FREE FROM THE FEAR AND CONTROL OF MEN AND WHAT THEY SAY OR THINK OF YOU.

HE IS CALLING. WISDOM IS CALLING IN THE STREETS. IS ANYONE LISTENING?

Life is full of pain and disappointments and if we seek to comfort ourselves and provide for ourselves apart from Him we will only prolong our misery in this world. The worst possible existence is knowing the Lord and trying to hold onto part of this world. Loving the world.

Learn of Him, learn His ways. Reject the religious pressure to perform that is all around you and sit at His feet as Mary did. It wasn't Mary that Jesus rebuked, but the actively religious, attention starved, Martha. Martha was more intent on proving HER worth to Him through HER works and putting others down. MARTHA was all about MARTHA. Mary had chosen the good part, which would not be taken from her.

Luke 10:42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

ONLY ONE THING IS NEEDFUL.

Be still and know that He is God. Not you, not I, but He is God.

Learn to be a pleaser of God and not man and you will stop having those spiritual "identity crises"

You will never have true peace in your life if you are influenced and controlled by the FEAR OF MAN. Get free from the fear of man, NOW. Repentance will bring times of refreshing.

The Lord is faithful to purge us, and to refine us.

You are going through nothing more than the process of sanctification, where the Lord is working to get more of your heart and deliver you from yourself and other idols in your heart.

Jer 9:23 Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
Jer 9:24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

Matt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Matt 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

777

 2011/4/6 0:42
lylewise
Member



Joined: 2009/2/20
Posts: 494
Celina, Texas

 Re:

I tender something small and get back what I cannot count nor what I can handle. I was looking for a little light and I got blinded. I do sometimes forget that this is one of the ways the Lord works as He matures, sanctifies, and humbles. He is unmistakably glorified in it. So often I am proud to think I can handle a fuller picture of God when I can't even begin to see the canvas before the painting has begun. Now I think how foolish to have prayed in such cavalier fashion when I approach Him asking for just a fraction of a greater glimpse. The fraction He reveals is more than I can handle. It seems these subject verses have more depth than I could have ever imagined. Isn't that God!

 2011/4/6 10:32Profile









 Re: The ROCK men fall upon being broken to pieces vs those whom it falls upon (ground

Quote:
And then we find out that we were deceived by our own heart, lusts, and imagination.

And it's great to have our frame of reference recalibrated by the Lord's revelation of that stark reality.

 2011/4/6 10:41





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