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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : "A Christian's Freewill & Those Days"

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 "A Christian's Freewill & Those Days"

Please understand that I do not possess the gift of perfect expression, but that I've only attempted here to express the thoughts and feelings of my heart only.

Most of us have read and believe that MOST Will Fall Away during the time just prior to His Coming.

May I present my observations and beliefs of what may attribute to this great falling away? Please understand that this is based upon my "observations" over the entire time that I've been in The Church and not merely in just one location.
I was saved in Virginia Beach and there after moved quite a bit, from State to State and out of country for a while. Then, having purposely moved to the Charlotte, NC area to get away from the spiritually cold North, to the Belt Buckle of the Bible Belt [Billy Graham Country, as it's called, with even a highway named after him], looking only for a church to attend - I visited many within two Counties during my 10 yr stay there.
The many of which, held to the OSAS doctrine or the full 5 pts of TULIP.

I couldn't and can't help but notice an increasing number of "believers" that are losing their faith in GOD's salvation and those who are having major struggles with their flesh abounding or not bothering to resist temptation at all.

I saw a Lot of "Good Works or Deeds" from some certain members out of each Church, but generally, no drive to go "Deeper Still" by a willingness to 'pay the price' of what that 'going deeper still' demands.

I saw a true lack in the congregations to 'know' His Word - to pull away from the things of this world, such as TV and anything else that takes away from the time that could be used for searching after the deeper things of GOD. I saw little difference in these church goers, as far as how they spent their leisure time than how the world does. I saw carnality, as some would call it. I saw a trusting in going to church on Sundays as the main "browny point" that meant to the people that they were alright with GOD, despite their actions and thought life the rest of the week. Very very little emphasis on Philipians 3:7-14. Little or none of the teachings of the total surrender of taking up one's cross or dying to self (as some would term "walking solely in obedience to the leading of His Spirit).
The few "active" Churches were mainly only "active" in good deeds.

Besides the belief that GOD will rapture those in this presently Free-Nation before they experience great persecution and possibly martyrdom - I have noticed that these are believers in one or more of the tenets of Calvinism.
Even those who hold to a sort of Post-Trib view.

Forgive me if this angers both you and me at the same time - but GOD has truly given me an over-powering love for human beings and to watch anyone person having a struggle with their salvation or flesh is grievious to me and even worse - it is contagious - in that it causes others to witness that 'Christianity' is Not that secure of a belief and that Christianity is a belief system that teaches that humans are actually robots of GOD, that GOD cannot control or 'keep'.

Please bear with me, as I express what I feel from all that I've witnessed in my mere 35 years "in the church", that makes me come to this conclusion of what the major cause of this falling away from the faith and a bad witness, both to the non-Christians and to fellow believers is. Mainly - the belief that human beings DO NOT [truly] HAVE FREEWILL regarding their final Salvation.

I had to truly deal with this myself and look at this TULIP belief objectively, with Bible Wide Open and not spare any one verse of the New Testament in this.

The "essence" of a teaching -

"Total Depravity" - Is the person believing - I have no freewill, therefore, because I'm a filthy wretch - it's ALL up to GOD to do something about that - first to save me and then to do all the continuous keeping me 'from' sinning there-after.

"Unlimited Election" - Since the person considers themselves to be specially chosen - no matter what they do or choose, they'll be saved by GOD by no choice of their own.

"Limited Attonement" - This makes those who believe they are the Elect to feel much more Special than the rest of the world. These "specially elect ones" will be saved, 'no matter what' - and the rest can go to hell, because God wants them to burn eternally in Hell, despite their possible own desire to be saved.

"Irresistable Grace" - Is the person believing that again, there's no freewill and God will save them because His grace is not resistable, because they are one of the specially chosen/elect and others are not. That they have no choice in the matter at all.

"Perseverence of the saints" - Is the person believing that, they have no freewill or OSAS, so their freewill has nothing to do with it - that only God will or can work on them, to make them live like a saint so that, if they are "tempted from their own lusts", it's up to God to do it all, because they can't stop sinning by their own choice and if they can't stop sinning - it's God's fault somehow and they'll keep saying & praying for the duration - "GOD Has To DO Something to make me stop lusting and sinning. It's ALL up to GOD."

(Not yelling - but there's no code for emphasis.)

What I have seen is that - ALL of the "choose ye this day" type verses from the entire Bible have been IGNORED.

All of the "Commands" of the New Testament have been IGNORED.

All of the verses that show God's invitation to 'come' unto Him have been IGNORED.

That all of the verses that tell us to take ourselves, our thoughts, our behavior and our bodies and 'choose' to control them - bring ourselves under submission, have been IGNORED.

That whenever verses stating man's responsible to submit and control his own vessel are spoken, that those who hold to anyone of the 5 pts yell - "WORKS".

That those who came to believe in Christ, basically made a "mental assent" - NOT to every written Word of the New Testament - but to 1 or more of the beliefs of TULIP.

There is So much more that can be said on this - but it is now no surprise whatsoever, that those who do not believe in freewill or for those who came to Christ under the banner of OSAS -- that came to God upon anyone of these false suppositions of no freewill, WILL have problems in these last days. When working Co-operatively with His Spirit is more important than ever before in human history - As JESUS said it will be .... because iniquity abounds, the love of most is going to and is growing cold.

No Freewill regarding "the end of our Salvation" =equals= No consistent feelings of obligation to Obedience to the 'Entire' New Testament!

No Freewill equals Easy Believism !

LORD I pray that You will remove the veil to expose that this is the lie that is causing many to stumble and fall in these days. That OSAS alone causes spiritually lazy people.
Resting on 'any' lie never Stands when the ground is shaken beneath us.

1Pe 4:17,18 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Believing a person has No Freewill regarding the end of their salvation will not make one "Faithful unto the End", considering what is and what will come upon this earth before His Appearing.

I pray for all of my Friends here and everywhere, that have eaten any part of this poisonous tulip.

I pray to GOD, that my Friends will see nothing when they open their New Testaments, Except the exhortations and commands of GOD and to Only see verses that pertain to "counting the cost before coming to Him" - "man's 'responsibility' before a Holy GOD" and those verses that stress "remaining faithful".

There is this joint fellowship - this Co-operation with His Spirit - the two sided 'relationship' based upon a love for GOD, as a wife for a Husband, that we must never leave off.

As "inquity abounds" - our roots will surely need to go "deeper still" than any generation that have gone on before us, or else His Words are not true at all.

Jesus said:

Be thou Faithful unto death and I will give thee a crown of Life.

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ

So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

"Elect according to the 'foreknowledge' of God the Father", through sanctification of the Spirit, "unto [to/into] obedience" and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

I have and have had no intentions of an Arm/Cal "fight", but a discussion if anyone so desires

In His Love.

 2011/3/28 15:54

Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1035

 Re: "Freewill & Those Days"

Jesus-is God,

I have witnessed what you talk about in your observations bacause I have spent time in Calvinist churches, but I think God is raising honest voices to confront the counterfeit.

I just listened today to a sermon by a Calvinist ( haven't done that in a while) titled " Why Revival Tarries" by Alan Cairns. Despite his malicious attack at Finney, I think it was a very good sermon and worth listening to.

We must be honest though and say that the church as a whole is in a backslidden state, whether it be Roformed Baptist, penticostal, or Mennonite.


 2011/3/28 18:41Profile

Joined: 2007/5/22
Posts: 326

 Re: "Freewill & Those Days"

Friend, the 'calvinism' you have outlined above could only be described as blasphemous heresy. John Calvin did not teach what you have set out and the Bible certainly doesn't teach this.

The acrostic TULIP must be considered carefully. Most of the terms create misunderstanding because they are used to fit a stupid acrostic. For example 'total depravity' suggests we are as bad as we could possibly be. It would be better termed 'radical falleness' because the teaching that, incidentally, it was created to challenge is that because of sin, our free wills(which we very much have) are incapable of trusting Christ ie the fact that we have a free will is our problem. We will always make the wrong choice, freely. Unless God does a work of grace in our hearts.

You are of course entitled to disagree with Calvinism (I prefer the term 'doctrines of grace), but be careful not to misrepresent them.

In Christ



 2011/3/28 18:45Profile

Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1035


the 'calvinism' you have outlined above could only be described as blasphemous heresy.

our free wills(which we very much have) are incapable of trusting Christ


You mean that we are like an eagle who have a broken wing.
He has the choice to fly and break his neck.

What kind of nonesense is this?


 2011/3/28 19:02Profile

Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272


Jesus is God

Paul writes of the last days in 2 Timothy: “This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come” 2 Tim 3:1 (KJV). All that were in Asia had turned away from him.

But the foundation which he had laid would continue up to Christ’s coming.

“Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” 2 Tim 2:19 (KJV)

And today, The Lord knoweth them that are his. Even in the churches you speak of, there are those with a heart after Christ, those who depart from iniquity. And He knows them.

I see from your posting the way you have come, and so, can understand why you place the emphasis where you do. But you must agree that, free will/ choice etc system of doctrine can also lead to belivers loosing their way, not departing from iniquity, but falling away from Christ. Neither teaching is perfect or complete in itself.

But in both, the Lord knoweth them that are His.



 2011/3/28 19:15Profile

Joined: 2010/7/12
Posts: 65

 Re: "Freewill & Those Days"

@ Jesus is God

I would have to respectfully disagree with the way you have portrayed the doctrines of Grace. I will not say much, there isn't much point in fanning the fires of an ancient debate. I will just make some humble points.

1. The fact that many people have laid claim to the doctrines of grace and yet ended up living in wickedness does not prove that the doctrines themselves are wrong.

2. I grew up in a very "free will oriented church" so to speak. I don't think you can say the easy believism is only a "calvinist" problem. Many non-calvinist :) have also fallen into the rut of "pray this prayer", "acknowledge these four truths" type evangelism. The root evil in easy believism is that the doctrine of regeneration is swept under the rug. And also easy believism festers greatly in places were false profession is not warned of.

3. In a christian, the doctrine of election produces great humility not pride. Esteem for God's honor for sure, but no boasting of self.

4. The Doctrine of Perserverence is that all sincere believers, through God's grace, will grow in sanctification, holiness throughout their lives. A growing of repentance and humility, more brokeness over sin yet more victory over it. Evidence of God's discipline in their life and a constant battle and struggle to make their calling and election sure.

5. In concerning the will, only God alone has a perfectly free will. He alone can do as He please and who is there who can hold back His arm? He never contradicts His moral character which is infinite in its scope and thus He is free within Himself. Man first made in the image of God has a limited will. But there are many things we may wish to do which we cannot. We are moral creatures absolutely. But upon the fall man's will became enslaved to sin. We still have a will but it loves sin and even the good things we do are done with a sinful motive. Consider a totaled vehicles where even the steering wheel and column are totally disabled. It is there, but it does no good. We resist God's will from day one, dead in sin. The beautiful thing is that the way God saves a person is that He regenerates them and persuades and enables the will to turn to Him in faith. An irresistible drawing made effectual by God.

Jeremiah 24:7 (New American Standard Bible)

7'I will give them a heart to know Me, for I am the LORD; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart.

Jer 32:38-40
"They shall be My people, and I will be their God;

39and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them.

40"I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

Psalms 110:3 Your people will volunteer freely in the day of Your power;
In holy array, from the womb of the dawn,
Your youth are to You as the dew.


 2011/3/28 20:39Profile


And here I sit listening to my favorite radio station that's strictly Reformed theology and being a member of a Reformed theology pca church. :)

Rather than go point for point, I'd rather just give you my observations again, that prompted this thread and my understanding from The Word, who the Elect are.

What prompted this thread, as you've already noted, was that those who I am aware of that are wondering if they're saved and seeming to be losing the battle over one lust or another are believers in Eternal Security, which cannot go hand in hand with the belief of man having a freewill.

Most all are basically blaming GOD, that He hasn't "delivered" them nor "made Himself real" to them.

This began to truly puzzle me, because if they believed truly in their own Eternal Security, there would be nothing coming from them continually questioning their own salvation.

My question is - How many "commands" and "if you will" type verses do we see in the N.T.?
How many other type "commands" does the Apostles put into their Epistles that prove that there Must be freewill in each of us, to chose to either obey or not?

For the life of me, I cannot find any indication that man does not have freewill from reading the Word faithfully.

Jesus even said: "If any man wills to do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."

Can you see the freewill even there? And yes, we do see this also in Psa 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

Who are willing? Yes, the elect. But who are the elect?

Three times in the N.T. The LORD tells us "those who He foreknew".

Those who He "foreknew", that would be faithful unto death, are the elect and are eternally secure.

 2011/3/28 21:21


Hi UntoBabes. I agree with you. That's why I can sit under a Reformed Pastor.

And yes, I see all denominations covered in the apostasy, but those that I personally know and have puzzled me most, that are crying out for help, just happen to be those who either believe in osas or no-freewill and because of that - have not felt the need to press-in, but are of the belief that it is all GOD's fault - though they're not using those very words.

A free-willer knows it's their own choice to fall away.

Blessings to you!

 2011/3/28 21:32

Joined: 2010/7/12
Posts: 65


A biblical calvinist will not blame God for his sin. But he realizes that apart from the grace of God he has no hope. Apart from Christ he can do nothing. There are two biblical truths that we must recognize. God is Sovereign, that means ,Sovereign, and secondly Man is Responsible. Our finite minds are incabable of understanding how these two truths can be reconciled. But that does not negate that they are true. But neither can we understand how God can make something from nothing. Neither can we understand how God is eternal and without change. But with Him all things are possible. I could easily post many scriptures clearly stating that we are saved by God's grace alone, not by the will of man or flesh. There is much also to support security in Christ, evidenced by a perservering toward the goal, we must always remember the Grace is the root of the fruit. what do i have that i have not been given?

Here is a little mantra that helps me, i can have fellowship with any arminian provided he believes that salvation is by God's grace alone, not man's will or flesh, and also with any calvinist who believes wholeheartedly in proclaiming the Gospel to all people. :)

I shall say no more, perhaps i have said too much already


 2011/3/28 21:46Profile


I probably should have stated straight out that I wouldn't call myself Arminian.

My problem is, not seeing "no freewill", from the O.T. through to the Revelation. I see freewill everywhere in the Book and with it, "obedience".

Oh, I definitely believe we are saved by grace through faith - but this faith is a continuous action and a verb to my understanding. Believing or faith produces the works of obedience that an unregenerate man cannot do without the indwelling of His Spirit and by His Faith within.

What has troubled me, is when we would post the upteen many verses that are seen as commands to obedience, as I mentioned in the OP, the shout of "WORKS" would be thrown at us.

No, you haven't said too much. You're my Brother.

 2011/3/28 22:04

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