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strawrifle
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 139
uk

 A question for Calvinist (purely friendly)

Hi, for the longest time I've wanted to ask you guys a question so here goes..

I don't personally consider myself saved (and for the thread it would be helpful if we just agree on that)

But for the longest time I've been interested maybe even obsessed about things of God, getting saved etc..I've listened,read,had conversations all about God over and overrrrrrrr,even glued to films like ben hur as a kid.The bottom line is i'm still the same though...Were talking about a period from 8-44..

Now my question is if i'm dead spiritually, what have i been doing all this time, to me it's tryingggg to find God and not succeeding, Is it possible for me to find God?? How can i be totally depraved if i'm so obsessed

NO DEBATE BETWEEN THE TWO GROUPS

This is a friendly question asked of a group of people i have a lot of respect for!! And i just want their opinion

cheers


_________________
andy

 2011/3/21 17:40Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re: A question for Calvinist (purely friendly)

A thought: There are men out there who beat their wives yet say they love them.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2011/3/21 19:54Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: A question for Calvinist (purely friendly)

Jimmy :)

Strawrifle, I think you have incorrectly labeled the title. You are really asking a question for Christians in general. The Calvinist-Arminian debates are about differences between non-essential doctrines, not differences about justification by faith and salvation.

Quote:
Now my question is if i'm dead spiritually, what have i been doing all this time, to me it's tryingggg to find God and not succeeding, Is it possible for me to find God?? How can i be totally depraved if i'm so obsessed



It is difficult to know how to respond. I am not entirely sure how you understand your own question. Also, I am not certain what your criteria and expectations are for finding God.

Since we are all spiritually dead to begin with and it is in that state that we are first drawn and led to seek God; moreover, since God has put eternity, as it were, and the knowledge of Himself in our hearts; it is therefore little wonder that you would find yourself mindful of whether or not God exists and who or what He is. The pursuit of God is quite natural and intuitive.

It should also be pointed out that it appears you have misunderstood the meaning of total depravity. If I am following you correctly, the implication is that if you are totally depraved then thoughts and concerns about God should be non-existent. That is not accurate. Total depravity is merely the doctrine that man in his natural sinful state (as distinguished from his original state in the garden prior to the Fall) is entirely incapable of justifying himself before a Holy God. Moreover, prior to the renewing and enlightening of God's Spirit man's heart is stubbornly spiteful of the righteousness and mercy of God. This does not mean that man will never seek for God, even as he seeks for wisdom, but it is only to say that he will never love the God he is ultimately looking for. Such that when God manifests Himself in some way to the seeker is not satisfied; so, instead of turning to glorify God, the man turns aside for something else. For the man, without the grace of God and without a love for the truth he receives, will never value and cherish the things of God. For those are spiritually appraised and he is yet carnally minded (his affections are set upon the things of the earth: those things which perish and are passing away). Thus, things the natural man regards as foolishness are often revealed to be the riches and wisdom of God in Christ.

Now, if you might please clarify your question a bit. You say you are trying to find God but what exactly are you looking for? Or, perhaps more precisely, what evidences are you considering for determining God's existence or for who He is?

And, when you consider such things, what are your expectations? Are you waiting for some kind of divine confirmation (e.g., a burning in your bosom, liver shivers, to be struck by lightning, writing in the sky or some such)? Often people will speak of a great weight being lifted off of their shoulders or a deep sense of peace and assurance when first being found of God (yes, I said, when God finds them, not vice versa — it would be wise for you to consider the implications of that). But none of these expectations are evidences for knowing when one is born again of the Spirit of God or for when one has had a "supernatural experience" (as some excitable persons claim). A side note on that, my point is to emphasize that many persons will often be induced into various altered states of consciousness and ignorantly assume that the sensate experiences of chemical intoxication is evidence for the presence of God or angels. And their reasoning on the matter is no more profound than because it felt good. An unfortunate state of affairs.

To put it simply, there are quite frankly no sensations, no signs, no physical or emotional feelings or such evidences that will guarantee or confirm to any man the existence of God or who He is. These things may certainly be assurances (for they are certainly not contrary to it) but ultimately they are not guarantees. That is the nature of spirit. In theology this is often called the Hiddenness of God. For it seems as if, even with all of our greatest and sincerest efforts, God is completely unattainable and unknowable. (As I said, when God finds us, not vice versa. This is also an extension of the doctrine of total depravity.)

I will leave you with these things to consider, for now. Please let me know your thoughts and, if you would answer some of the questions presented, then, I will do my best to dialogue with you.


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Jordan

 2011/3/21 21:19Profile
strawrifle
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 139
uk

 Re:

Hi thks for the replies..

Firstly i directed the question to one group because i thought it was more their doctrine, and secondly i didnt want the thread to become a debate between the two groups..

Your reply as been very helpful, this section most helpful


(((((It should also be pointed out that it appears you have misunderstood the meaning of total depravity. If I am following you correctly, the implication is that if you are totally depraved then thoughts and concerns about God should be non-existent. That is not accurate. Total depravity is merely the doctrine that man in his natural sinful state (as distinguished from his original state in the garden prior to the Fall) is entirely incapable of justifying himself before a Holy God. Moreover, prior to the renewing and enlightening of God's Spirit man's heart is stubbornly spiteful of the righteousness and mercy of God. This does not mean that man will never seek for God, even as he seeks for wisdom, but it is only to say that he will never love the God he is ultimately looking for. Such that when God manifests Himself in some way to the seeker is not satisfied; so, instead of turning to glorify God, the man turns aside for something else. For the man, without the grace of God and without a love for the truth he receives, will never value and cherish the things of God. For those are spiritually appraised and he is yet carnally minded (his affections are set upon the things of the earth: those things which perish and are passing away). Thus, things the natural man regards as foolishness are often revealed to be the riches and wisdom of God in Christ.))))





I guess the simple question is, does total depravity mean all my efforts to get saved won't move God, if so, what do u do when u cant do anything :p...

How do u make God find u?? Cornelius seemed to move God before he was saved...

What do i want? I want to KNOW God and i want to KNOW that i'm saved...

andy


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andy

 2011/3/21 22:55Profile
Areadymind
Member



Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean

 Re:

Do you believe he died and rose again? Do you believe that he took your place on Calvary and stayed the mighty hand of God's wrath against you? Do you believe Jesus can save you? Call out to him for salvation. Do you believe He is the source of eternal life? Ask that he would birth you in the spirit. Have you asked him to save you? Have you placed your faith in Christ? Do you believe Jesus is the way the truth and the life and that no man can come to the Father but by His son?

Simply believe. Put your trust and faith in him to save you from your sin. I could think of no greater tragedy in all Christian history than someone being denied entrance into the heavenly city because they could not settle a theological debate of chicken and egg while in this life.

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." -John 6:36

Come to Jesus, seek his face for salvation...ask him to save you. He will in no wise cast you out. Unto the merciful He will show himself merciful.

"Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, and brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." -Acts 16:29-31

"But as many as received him, to them he gave the power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." -John 1:12

"Verily verily I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven." -John 3:5

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only son of God." -John 3:14-18

"And when he (the Holy Spirit) is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they believe not on me..." -John 16:8-9

Is the Spirit reproving you because of unbelief? What then should be your response?

Praying for you.


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Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2011/3/21 23:06Profile
strawrifle
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 139
uk

 Re:

(((could think of no greater tragedy in all Christian history than someone being denied entrance into the heavenly city because they could not settle a theological debate of chicken and egg while in this life. )))

One point the theological debate to this question isnt why im not saved , i was just wondering if it was the reason God never responded,,i wasnt worried about total depravity at 8 :p...


Honestly ive asked God over and over to save me in the last 30 years..Most nights i spend time pleading with God to do something, and everytime i still feel dead and unchanged, and yes full of unbelief but 30 years of asking and no reponse will do that to you..


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andy

 2011/3/21 23:26Profile
Areadymind
Member



Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean

 Re:

Quote:
One point the theological debate to this question isn't why I'm not saved , I was just wondering if it was the reason God never responded,



I could never claim to speak to the specificity of your situation Strawrifle. All I have to stand on is what the word says. If Jesus tells me he will not cast me out for coming to him, all I can do is believe that.

One more thing to consider...

Romans 6:11 "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ your Lord."

Quote:
30 years of asking and no response will do that to you..



Again though, you still did not answer the rest of my questions, please forgive my directness. Do you in fact believe all the things I asked you?


_________________
Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2011/3/22 0:00Profile
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, if you can believe romans 9:10,11 you can be saved . if you do not have the faith to believe what God says in the bible you will not be saved. it is simple. God put the cookies on the bottom shelf.children can reach them but religious folks ignore them.jimp

 2011/3/22 0:38Profile









 Re:

Quote:
God put the cookies on the bottom shelf.children can reach them but religious folks ignore them.jimp



Haha. I like that one. Well said.

 2011/3/22 0:56









 my dear beloved Andy, strawrifle from the UK

oh my dear brother, unseen yet beloved by me, and seen and beloved by God;

i'm with you, not in body, but in spirit, and i testify to you this:

of course you can and you WILL find God, and whats more, you know this, deep in your heart.

forget the Calvin, Armianian thing, no offense to anybody, but Andy, if God the Holy Ghost can take a Jew like me, and speak to me in a lonely mountain hut, and remake me, refurbish me and enable me to APPREHEND Jesus as Messiah, then He can do it for you. (just the fact that you're on this website, indicates your God Hunger...amen?)

i heard a story once, a girl comes up to the pastor and says, i find it so hard to love Jesus, the pastor replys, when your on your knees, driving your car, going to and fro, just say in heart, "Jesus loves me"...over and over, relish that heart thought, those Words, like hard candy.

Jesus loves me, Jesus loves me, Jesus loves me.

week later, eyes brimming with tears the wee lass comes back and exclaims, "Oh, How i love Jesus!"

so if you want Andy, get on your knees, or with a cuppa, and roll those words in your heart, "Jesus loves me"....

Coz He does Andy, you and i both know it, i smile at you with love, HIS love (and a hearty dash o mine) neil

 2011/3/22 1:03





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