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 Re:

Quote:
To ‘yield’ is to give up passively, to ‘present’ is to offer up, actively.


I still see personally a place for 'yielding' to God upon the foundation of 'presenting' I agree 90% of what you are saying brother Ron and I thank you for the careful explanation of your position which is going to help many surely that read this thread and find it on google and other search engines in the future. So I suppose you would say that we need to have 'control' in elements of spiritual experience? I think this is true to a point but there comes the aspect that once presented into the hands of the master as an instrument He may use it as He wishes. You quoted: "The essence of the mystic is passivity. It is the opening of the mind to whatever is passing" with which I fully agree and think its a great definition but the foundation in that case is just a sense of seeking a power other then our own. But if the meditation starts from a foundation of Scripture then it becomes something plausible? Does God choose to give us dreams, visions, trances, blessings through meditation on scripture? or can we enter into a place to quiet our hearts and hear from God to allow these things to happen. I am very much agreeing with most of your post but trying to edge open the door abit to allow people to see a way to have genuine spiritual experience which in many cases appears very close to the "mystical" (your definiation of the word) experience.

Quote:
With all my strength I must cry poison! I can do no other. If I have startled you, I’m sorry, genuinely sorry, but if I can keep one dabbler away from those bottles I’m willing to take the flack.


I respect your opinion and heart-felt well thought out defense against possible spiritual delusion of young believers in seeking God spiritually.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/11/20 18:53Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Looks like I am about two replies behind and have to run out but...

Dear Ron, I do hope you won't cease to comment on this, I have a great deal of respect toward your spirit as well as your knowledge in this school of faith. There are many things you have stated that deserve attention and perhaps many of us are still working through this here, meaning we don't have our mind quite made up yet.

So dear sir, please tarry with us just a bit farther :-)

Back in a few....


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Mike Balog

 2004/11/20 19:08Profile
Chosen7Stone
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Joined: 2003/7/21
Posts: 268
FL, USA

 Re:

Hey all,
A little behind here. Just read part of one of Mike's previous posts, and brought a few things to mind. Excuse me if they've already been brought up. He had defined:

Quote:
Mystic
MYS'TIC
MYS'TICAL, a. [L.mysticus.] Obscure; hid; secret.
1. Sacredly obscure or secret; remote from human comprehension.
God hath revealed a way mystical and supernatural.
2. Involving some secret meaning; allegorical; emblematical; as mystic dance; mystic Babylon.


That sounds an awful lot like Gnosticism to me.
Also, I've been studying Jewish mysticism lately, specifically the teachings of the Kaballah. I have never come across something labeled Jewish, yet that falls so far from Scripture. Even the rabbinic texts look sacred compared to the Kaballah.
If my assumptions are correct, Christian mysticism would fall along the same lines. I don't know a lot about the topic, but anything that takes the focus off of Christ is not truly Christian.


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Mary M.

 2004/11/20 21:32Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
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 Re:

Quote:
That sounds an awful lot like Gnosticism to me



You have discerned wisely. Gnosticism has to do with "hidden knowledge" (gnosis) and its influence was already being dealt with by John the Revelator in his epistles. Its foundation is 'dualism' which is any philosphy of opposing forces. Good and evil/ darkness and light, etc. Though some of these concepts and terms cross over into Christianity we must not get them confused.

Gnostics felt that you needed to get "out of the flesh" and into the "spirit" because the body was made of 'matter' and all matter is evil. Matter, according to platonic philosophy, was made by a Demi-urge. Demi-urge was a lesser 'god' in this thinking that supposedly created the material universe. The Greek word is démiourgos and it means "a craftsman."

Eventually this led to the early Christians believing that anything 'physical' was somehow unclean. Relations with ones wife was considered unclean because the body was unclean, etc.. Soon it bacame 'noble' and 'spiritual' to deny yourself any gratification of physical desires. God said be fruitful and multiplym but platonism made it more noble to become a eunuch. This flourished AFTER the time of the "present distress" had passed (the 10 great persecutions of the church beginning with Domition and ending with Diocletian not including Nero). This was NOT Biblical, it is platonic. It is evidence of Hellenism upon Christianity.

Soon these concepts gave rise to Monasticism (monastaries of various orders). They would often scourge their bodies and sleep on rocks and stuff to torture (crucify) their 'flesh.' This is not crucifying the flesh, it is platonism. It is why there are Nun's today and Monk's. Discipline is pratically worshipped in some circles. This is not spirituality. We need to control our appetites, etc. and I have taught extensively on that; but this is a different level.

Martin Luther was an Augustinian monk when he came to Christ. The monastic life of scourgings and discipline could not meet the need of this man spiritually.

Should we fast? Yes!
Should we be disciplined? Yes!
Should we exercise our senses? Yes!
Should we live in moderation? Yes!

Is eating sin? No!
Am I more spiritual because I eat 1 meal a day? No!
Am I more spiritual because I get up at 4:00 AM everyday and run 3 miles? No!
Am I more spiritual because I sleep on a stone bed? No!

You will be more Spiritual when you get FULL of the Holy Ghost. The leading of the Spirit will work out the issues of excess and moderation as we yield to the Spirit and God convicts us through His word, etc. Anything else is artificial spirituality and it will manifest itself in the right circumstances; it's only a matter of time.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/11/20 22:02Profile
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 Re:

Ron said,

Quote:
Here’s simple exercise. Go to amazon.com, find the book section and type in ‘mysticism’ in the search box. See what you get. Would you want a young Christian to be let loose into this area? Just look at the first 25 of 28699! What a junkyard of occult! In Christian circles we can readily replace the concept with ‘spiritual’ although in the outside world ‘spiritual’ has come to mean something very close to mystic.



But wouldn't that be expected?
I tried it with 'Christian' in front of it and though I understand that that in itself is the problem we are discussing, the results were a bit different as I would also expect.
Quote:
The essence of the mystic is passivity. It is the opening of the mind to whatever is passing. It is bringing everything to a passive stillness and waiting to see what pops into the mind. Its purpose is to facilitate union with the divine. It accepts no authority other than its own self-authenticating experience.


Agreed if that is what is taking place and am reminded of our friend Jake here as I recall that was part of what he was involved in. My question would be, is this always the case? Even with some of the names mentioned prior? Again, a real question not a provocation.
Quote:
Nothing enters without express permission and invitation. Christ will not enter unless a man ‘hears his voice and opens the door’. The mystic opens the door before he hears any voice and passively receives


I can see where you are going here and believe I may have been earlier on doing much of that without even [i]totally[/i] realizing it and where did I get this idea from?....Oddly not the 'mystics' per SE, but the whole word of faith camp. Not that it's overt I would say it's more subtle, that herding mentality and as Strom recently brought up, the sense of having a 'check' in your spirit and suppressing it anyway. The louder voices out there drawing my attention to what had been recognized but forcing me to deal with it. A ready thought hearkens back to a time where we were 'instructed' on speaking in tongues and that 'part of our problem' was that we weren't letting the Holy Spirit have room, that we 'needed to let our minds go'...I don't think so.
Quote:
As regards other elements of the Christian pilgrimage. I am no stranger to pain and sorrow. I have known such in long, drawn out, trials and in the intense pangs of grief. I never think of these as ‘costs’ For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; Phi 1:29 KJV) They are given; they are gifts. I don’t seek these but as they are given I seek to embrace them actively rather than sinking down into the passive acceptance of the Stoic.


Didn't realize there was such a thing as "The Dark Night of The Soul" until after the fact and didn't recall that this was something to seek after...that's neither here nor there, I just honestly don't recall from reading it, much I can't recall... We might 'need' discipline, but seriously, do we really want a whipping? No thanks. Even our Lord asked if there was another way and I realize the full implications we could never truly grasp, but He was still a [i]man[/i] and just as surely the thought of being whipped and having nails driven through His members were just as repelling to Him as they would be to us. Think you are right in that we can go to far and start making things either too spiritual or even 'mystical' in that sense...does that make sense?
Quote:
but I will not let so-called Christian music ‘take me’ either. I use music; I will not allow music to use me. I use my mind; I will not allow my mind to use me. These are good servants but dangerous masters.


Indeed. One of the first 'revelations' that occurred on the way out of so much nonsense was the simple yet oddly overlooked scriptural mandate to "...love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your [b]mind[/b].' Being that we are composite wholes and not compartmentalized parts...still seems [i]all[/i] means [i]all[/i].
Quote:
but if I can keep one dabbler away from those bottles I’m willing to take the flack.


Well I can relate to that and you well know my own particular bottles that I would be willing to take out back and shoot before anyone got ahold of them. So I appreciate the warnings, it has and will give me something to think more about in this area. I haven't read a lot of the 'Christian mystics' and those that I have, well it's been awhile now so the recall....

I guess I am still a bit curious as to what Tozer saw/gleaned or otherwise, being that he was such a strong man of the faith, of the authority of scripture, the Holiness of God. Pointing out the errors of his time and even into our own time as well as the dangers. Actually, I have most of his writings (on CD) and just haven't gotten around to this area from his standpoint. Did a search and came across this as something I do recall now:

[i](Tozer) discovered that these great souls, however flawed their theology, were uncontrollably in love with God.[/i]

That may not make it necessarily 'right' but...

It's a start and to do justice will post it in it's entirety separately. Again I appreciate the warnings Ron and don't have this all resolved nor do I think it is only a matter of motive or just appreciating some of the good out of the bad. It's a working through the process. As much as I would like everyone to fully cut off the limb of WOF/prosperity doctrine if all my outrage at it gets those to begin thinking about it..so that's why I hope you and Lars, those 'other guy's :-) and even the poor guy (Ryan) who is wondering just what he got started here :-P will continue to contribute their thoughts so we all can be encouraged and challenged in our thinking.


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Mike Balog

 2004/11/20 22:20Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
Hey all, A little behind here. Just read part of one of Mike's previous posts, and brought a few things to mind. Excuse me if they've already been brought up. He had defined: Mystic
MYS'TIC



A [i]little[/i]? :-P
Well, well, we don't hear from you in how long?
And know you are going to just pop in here... :-P
KIDDING!! I better be careful, we have a 'inflection' disease around here...

Praise God, we missed you girl!
Hope you are well.

By the way, that definition was from Ye Old Websters Dictionary or more acurately,
"Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English" so...think I saw another post delving into this... now I am a little behind. :-? (that's the 'confused' icon, but I like it, closest to 'goofy' that's available)


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Mike Balog

 2004/11/20 22:39Profile
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Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Great thoughts Robert...
[i]mystical to get spiritual[/i]

Also am reminded of the whole 'prayer labyrinth' thing our church did a while back...hmmm, now that I think about it more..another subject likely.


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Mike Balog

 2004/11/20 23:10Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Dear Ron, I do hope you won't cease to comment on this, I have a great deal of respect toward your spirit as well as your knowledge in this school of faith. There are many things you have stated that deserve attention and perhaps many of us are still working through this here, meaning we don't have our mind quite made up yet.

Hi Mike
I don't think there is much to add to what has been said now. Except to say that with all God's men, they know in part and sometimes there are very large gaps in what they know. The area of spiritual conflict and demonic activity was not one of the areas of Tozer's specialization. I wonder what he might have thought if he had seen the deluge of spirit powers that have flowed into the west since his time.

In spite of views which may indicate the opposite I am not without experience of the psychic and its consequences. My warnings do not arise from book learning.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/11/22 8:39Profile
ryan386
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Joined: 2004/10/23
Posts: 11


 Re:

I'm sitting here trying to figure out why I acted confused about this subject in the first place.

For me, I've had mystical experiences as a child and this led me into seeking these experiences.
Thats what led me into the occult. I consider mysticism as an option when I start wanting experiences again, for me its playing with

 2004/11/22 16:19Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

hi ryan
glad to hear from you, thought we might have scared you off.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/11/22 17:06Profile





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