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Jesus is God
The reason I started this thread is because I hear the question being asked often enough - "How do we walk in the spirit?"
I do understand the desire of christians to walk in the Spirit. But surely if we disregard bible teaching and follow the teaching of man, whoever he is, we will be deceived.
What I see in Nee's teaching is a lack of basic doctrine as taught by Paul. He makes no mention of sin, forgiveness, atonement, reconcillliation, the cross or being crucified with Christ. In fact his references to Jesus Himself are very sparsely included in his teaching. This concerns me as Jesus Christ is the beginning, center and end of our gospel.
I am concerned about a group of christians (like your ladies group) who meet to study the bible and Watchman Nee books. It is too much like a sect - JWs or Mormons.
The bible is not a book about "how to", as in how a christian can walk in the Spirit. We do not need to ask the question, but, as Paul, reckon ourselves as dead, and crucified with Christ, and carrying about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus.
Just because a doctrine is "spiritual" does not mean that God is the source, We are to test the spirits to see if the are from God. Every Spirit which confesses Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is from God. Nee's teaching almost ignores Jesus Christ (except perhaps as an example), and should be rejected.
I also devoured Nee's books back in the 70s, but decided to stick to the bible, the insipred word of God.
| 2011/2/26 6:16||Profile|
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David, I think you are judging a bit too hastily.
Quote: "He makes no mention of sin, forgiveness, atonement, reconcillliation, the cross or being crucified with Christ."
Brother, he has in his name, 60 books - one would not have to read them all to see that this statement you posted is incorrect. Just the few text messages here on SI would suffice to see that what you're saying is inaccurate.
Have your read The Normal Christian Life?
I know that you enjoy intellectual debates on other forums as well - I don't - but as far as your judging me - my other posts elsewhere here on SI would stand up to your judgment.
I would like to take the liberties afforded here and post the articles of whomsoever I choose, that are listed on Sermon Index's Homepage.
| 2011/2/26 12:15|
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The reason that I originally titled this thread "chapter one" was because I hadn't planned on posting all of just one book - but I don't mind that the title was changed.
There are books that I'm still trying to locate online - ebooks. One of which is titled "Christ:The Sum of All Spiritual Things".
Instead of posting clips of his books - I'll post links to the ebooks I can find.
The Normal Christian Life -
There is a book - but not an ebook, unfortunately, that has quotes from 63 of Nee's books - just seperate quotes from each book.
That book is titled "Secrets to Spiritual Power" by Sentinel Kulp. If you go to Amazon and click to "see" the book - you can read the "Contents" page, of the list of the 63 books that Sentinel quotes from.
As I've said on other threads - I can't say that I've ever met any one man who's teachings are considered 100% innerant and as I've posted elsewhere - Nee's eschatology was 'out there', but we can give those of earlier generations a break on that topic, as well as all other Classic authors on other topics.
NO man is 100% innerant but each of our classic authors had their own special insights and why I love the Classics - Tozer, Simpson, Torrey, J.C. Ryle, Spurgeon, Katz, Bounds, Taylor, Murray, and so forth.
Some "moderns" have set up websites elsewhere on the Net, in order to set themselves up against or Above these classic authors - writing their own Bible teachings, as if they have the only way of interpreting all of the Bible, that these classic authors weren't privy to - so be it - let GOD be the judge.
| 2011/2/26 12:51|
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You are right, JesusisGod, I was judging too hastily and offer my apologies to you for the personal remarks I made.
Regarding Nee, as you say, let God be the judge.
| 2011/2/26 18:13||Profile|
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Very good thread brother, the flesh isnt capable of serving or carrying out any work of the spirit, it only knows to satisfy that carnal state of flesh (mans physical and natural desires).
The body of Christ has been so busy doing that we have forgotten to rest by faith so we can enter in, as we enter into the promises of God, they can become not mundane but powerful. We can then be partakers of the Spirit and of Christ.
As I am finding out now, and for what reason I do not know, but brokenness of spirit and death of the carnality of man will lead to the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus working through our lives.
So what do we do in the meantime? Rest, be yourself enjoy your life, occupy until he comes, and do not look for working in Christ, this isnt run-at-the-mill work, and let God help redefine us as he did with Jacob.
| 2011/2/26 19:37||Profile|
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Good thread, agreed. Nee was a teacher of the deeper things of God and helped very many Christians to fulfill their hearts desire to live more closely to God and in His presence and any help along this way is most welcome and only those who have trodden this path of suffering can lead others. Of course he did not have complete light on everything - none of us have, and he is very wordy, but lets not forget there was only one book he actually wrote and the rest were translations from his talks.
Many read his work and that of others who are on this pathway of brokeness, and criticize it because they do not understand it, but this just means that they have not arrived yet at this time of growth and maturity and they would be wise to leave it for now and not fall into that common error of man that discounts everything that is not a reality for him when it comes to the deeper things of God. They can come back later at a time when the words have meaning and hopefully they will come back as it is a very real possibility that they may never come to an understanding of it as the Spirit of God does not strive with man forrever.
I am grateful indeed to Nee and his book The Normal Christian which came at the right time for me in my struggles and after reading and seeing the truth that Christ took us with Him to the cross so it was a past event and all that is required for us in our sanctification is to believe this and stand on it and the power of the crucifixion is released in us and the old man is de-activated rather than doing what all of us fall for which is working in the flesh. It is all by faith and this is the blessedness of the truth that Nee taught.
The subject of the process of the breaking of the `outer man` is a very important one but I am not 100% with Nee on this as I see that there are two break-ins necessary and I feel that he is too optimistic about the state of the average believer whom he says has the Spirit of God living in his sprit. I feel that the verses speaking of this union are only to be understood as occuring in those who have been broken for the entrance and although believers have the Holy Spirit working in them, it is rather that He is working from the outside and it is intermittent when He touches inside or the spirit. This explains why there is the up and down experiences, the highs of the conference followed very quickly by the return of the lows and emptiness of spiritual reality inside.
If what Nee says is true, then the inner man would be at rest and have that reality but be unable to translate it to the outer parts of his being so that it can touch others, but that is not where many are at if you get around foums and speak to believers today. Maybe men in his day were more advanced spiritually than in our times but many say they do not have this reality inside, they feel dead and that their prayers are not heard, and are longing to find this blessedness they had once but lost.
For them talking about the breaking `out` is not helpful, they need to know how to get the `inward` part done, and the book The Normal Christian Life would be the place to start. Maybe Nee meant the teaching of brokeness to follow on to his previous teaching.
| 2011/2/27 4:23|
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Greetings Kraut Frau,
I agree with most all of what you've written.
The only reason the "dying to self" message doesn't fly is SELF.
I posted the first chapter of the 3 volume "Spiritual Man" to try to clarify what Nee meant by his terminology - of the outter man, etc - as "the temple of GOD".
The only times I've ever seen this topic of bringing the soul under "the submission to" the Spirit disquiet anyone, has been those who prefer "intellect/the mind" to govern. Whether it be in how the WORD of GOD is read, interpreted, communicated or any other actions in life that are prefered by man's desire to operate autonomously - and as you've brought forth - "suffering", the putting down of self/flesh under submission to an indwelling GOD's authority, is what humans desire to avoid, besides.
"No flesh shall glory in His Presence."
Thank you for your reply and ManOfGOD as well.
| 2011/2/27 12:53|
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Thanks and thanks for putting Nees writings up. Yes I agree it is those who prefer intellect to govern and don`t know what their spirit is so really don`t get it. The soul and spirit must be severed by the Sword first. I don`t however go with the idea of `death/dying to self` which I know is a popular terminology used by Keswick teachers like Nee.
The scripture speaks of denying self and following Christ. It is the old man in us that is to be dead and crucified not self which is not the same thing according to my light. Dying to self is more of a concept which is found in Buddhism. I see self as neutral once the old man has been dealt with and this is the natural part of the flesh, the part that consists of our instincts and is not sin but they also must come under submission and governed by the motivational force in the body which must be the Holy Spirit. No flesh in His presence includes this aspect of it and this is what man finds very hard indeed, to stop using his own undetrstanding.
| 2011/2/28 9:55|
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I do understand that "death to self" can definitely be a term that has been taken out of context of His WORD. I can see that is why there is a Preface to "The Release of the Spirit" - that we're not discussing some sort of annihilation of the soul - but a soul brought under the submission to the/His Spirit within us - as Jesus walked - not autonomously - doing our own will, thinking our own thoughts, speaking our own words, or doing what we feel like doing - but taking up our cross daily - putting our own desires aside and praying for Him to lead, guide as He has promised to - if we lean not to our own understanding, but in all our ways, acknowledging Him, so that He'll direct our thoughts.
Taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.
Our 'soul/self' is the only thing that stands in the way of our hearing and then following His leading or lead.
It's a bringing into subjection of our own desires, thoughts, will for our days and so forth.
This is a moment by moment decision making walk.
To either have our 'own thoughts' or His and to either follow our own wills or depend on Him to guide us into His will - moment by moment. That "walking in the Spirit" which we all desire, but must be us "dying" so to speak, to our own desires & wills for our lives, days, moments.
The flesh and Spirit wage that warfare. One will win out and that is on that daily basis of our reckoning ourselves dead and taking up our cross daily. The cross points to death - obedience to GOD - and for others only and not for our own pleasures while on this earth - like Him.
He emptied Himself and became obedient unto death - the cross.
LORD Bless you!
Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mar 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
Mar 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
Mar 8:37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Mar 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Joh 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
Joh 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I *am*, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
| 2011/2/28 12:32|
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The WORD of GOD is Beautiful ~
Php 2:4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Php 2:14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
Php 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
Php 2:16 Holding forth the word of life ...
| 2011/2/28 12:44|