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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Hasn't anybody noticed?

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 Re: Hasn't anybody noticed?

An ecumenical movement is well established here in the UK, and many of this generation's Catholics have adjusted their vocabulary so it sounds biblical.

Some keen ones join 'Lent groups', where all the various denominational churches in a locality (who feel so inclined) meet to Bible study during the weeks before Easter. (I have never been in one of these groups.) The focus is on the points which the denominations have in common.

I should emphasise there are strong divisions across the country, where some Christians would NEVER do anything with a Catholic, and probably some Catholics feel the same way about non-Catholics. Some of this is because of the on-going violence associated with Northern Ireland, and certain football matches (and their (not necessarily church-going) supporters).

Because the Catholic liturgy is now in English, and the Bible (subtely altered) is promoted to Catholics again, it is easy for the Marian worship and prayers to 'saints' to appear insignificant to the outsider, but nvertheless, these are not biblical.

However, very conservative protestants have begun to join the Catholic church (for instance, married Anglican priests for whom a special Papal dispensation has been given), because of their resistance to women in ministry. One lady member of our Parliament joined a few years ago. She was from a staunchly evangelical Protestant background, with a reasonable grasp of theology.

For people coming the other way - that is, deciding to leave the Catholic Church because they now have a meaningful relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, such that they 'see' what is spiritually unsafe about 'Catholicism' - it is astonishing how much pressure the Catholic system can rustle up against them privately, once their decision has come to general light. (I know this from the experience of a friend, who had been very far from God as a Catholic, who then found Christ and started attending a protestant church.)

Over the years, I've come to realise that as long as a person considers themselves 'Catholic' - regardless of their church's behaviour, their own behaviour, or the challenges to their faith from non-Catholics - they will be left in peace (by the Catholic establishment). They can practise any other religion at the same time, as long as their primary allegiance is to Catholicism. I'm not sure if this is to do with money (only), or more that the Catholic church understands the spiritual hold Catholicism lays on its children when they are very young, (including the need to be buried in 'holy ground'), so that while that hold is working there is a lot of freedom.

Of course, this includes the freedom to sin, because there is no message of 'victory over sin' within Catholicism.

Is this part of the appeal of the Catholic chuch - that 'no-one is perfect'? Perhaps. By this, one's view is constantly being brought back to one's failures, which rings also with Calvinism, rather than Christ's overwhelming success on the cross and its full meaning. This is why we worship HIM (not Mary, who was never divine, and cannot become divine when a Pope declares it).

Recently, a matter of great concern was brought to my attention: that the 'age of consent' is only twelve years of age, in Vatican city, (the independent state with a seat in the UN) - the youngest in Europe. This ought to raise a lot of questions, not the least of which is why the Vatican needs an age of consent at all? For instance, is it about twelve year old employees marrying each other?

Many good things can be said about individual, good-hearted Catholics, who genuinely do their best to apply the teachings of Jesus Christ as well as their church, but sadly, they are living with an understandably high level of fear of man, which is not God's desire.

[Edited later to correct grammar.]

 2011/3/4 8:18


Alive-to-God; Thank you for your testimonial...It interests me. One thing stood out about your assessment though, that I wanted to address.

Marvel NOT!...that I say unto you that you must be born again!"..Jesus

Throughout the ages, Babylon, the great Harlot system, has been intimidating it adversaries..[unto death at times], and exercising dogmatic allegiance to her wicked tenants..[consider Luther, and a plethora of slaughtered martyrs no less..]

This Babylon...[1300 satanic temples in Rome at the time of Paul the apostle] simply sent her Priests into a small stream outside Rome, and declared them baptized Christians.

All of the demons that had temples in Rome, got a holy day..and the venerable Queen of Heaven, Astarte/ the biggest throne..EASTER.and..the title...THE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD[satan] and she is worshipped and prayed to millions and millions of times each hour, today.

The worship and prayer to Mary is the worship and prayer to Satanic beings. There must never be any compromise with her. Jesus exhorted, what I would say to these good catholics..."Come out of her MY PEOPLE!"

Every church ever born is made up of souls born again and filled with the holy spirit...or you are not the church. This is not doctrinal, or a belief is born of a Spirit.....from Heaven.

"Many good things can be said about individual, good-hearted Catholics, who genuinely do their best to apply the teachings of Jesus Christ as well as their church, but sadly, they are living with an understandably high level of fear of man, which is not God's desire... "Alive-to-God

Applying the teachings of Jesus will not save anybody, nor ever do any true good in the world. Only the Holy Spirit ministering LIFE brings any real good, and they must be born again by Him....or they will die in their sins.

If they are born from above...all the intimidation in Hell will not turn them away from their Savior.

These are the same as Muslims...with many good people in their ranks...I believe that. They must hear the truth, Repent and Believe. I did, you did, and every Christian did...if they are real.

Can they verbally confess that the Honor of the Pope as the VICAR of Christ is no less than honoring Satan himself?...for it is...

and can they verbally renounce the Worship and veneration of Mary as equally wicked and satanic?..It is..

This is a beginning, and an attitude...and to love them as any lost soul that needs Jesus's blood to be cleansed and go to Heaven, A NEW CREATURE!

 2011/3/4 8:53

 Re: Hasn't anybody noticed?

Brothertom, I am somewhat comforted by your post, as while I was writing mine, I was very aware there are many protestant churches which fall well short of the New Testament, and non-Catholic 'Christians' who do not have what they believe God's interests to be in mind, as much as many an average Catholic thinks they do.

We've had news items here on SI, and testimony from European Christians posting here, about the introduction of statues of Mary to some protestant churches, and, the possibility of confession being introduced to others. These possibilities both go along with systems which prevent the individual saints from functioning as the New Testament describes. In other words, the silencing of the body of Christ, and interferences with the freedom of individual Christians to live our their faith, brings the true Church into serious bondage.

The worship and prayer to Mary is the worship and prayer to Satanic beings. There must never be any compromise with her. Jesus exhorted, what I would say to these good catholics..."Come out of her MY PEOPLE!"

I would add that this is just as important in regard to the general world system which puts money (gold) as its main idol (although often this is concealed somehow), as it can be for Christians who find worldly attitudes dominating their church's agenda.

Luke 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

 2011/3/4 12:16


I initially wasn't going to respond to this thread because I recognize that it is a Protestant forum, and although I am more than happy to defend my faith, I have no desire to force it on anyone. It is not for me to refute all things written against the Catholic faith on this site. That is between the person writing and God.

I think though it is valid to address in some way the questions/assumptions people have addressed directly to me in this thread, because I don't want anyone to mistakenly assume my lack of an answer in any way means I am ashamed of becoming a member of the Catholic church ( I will be starting catechism classes soon).

I am just going to give a very brief overview of the process that lead me to where I am now, in the hope that it answers in some way answers the above posters.

First of all I have only come to faith over the last year or two and only started attending church fairly recently. I felt no great affiliation with any particular denomination. I was just "a Christian" and went to a church locally briefly before coming to Catholicism.

I read quite widely, including some Catholic authors, but tended mainly towards Protestant books. I did not feel any particular dislike of the Catholic church, more that it seemed quite formal and I had absorbed the teaching that the historic church was corrupted when Christianity became the official religion of the Roman empire. I greatly respected the writing of modern Catholics which I read, but did not feel convicted that there was a true historical church as such.

The thing the initially set me on the path of investigating the historical church was reflecting on the 'oneness' of the trinity and Jesus prayer to the father in John 17 while on holiday (vacation) recently.

'As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one. I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. (John 17:21-23)

I started looking into the history of the church, the split between the east and west and the reformation.

What was significant to me was that both the Roman Catholic, the Eastern Catholic and the Orthodox Church all recognize Apostolistic succession and the 7 sacraments. It was not until the reformation that they started changing church doctrine.

While I recognize there was corruption in the church in Luther's time, particularly in Rome, but it did not invalidate the entire church, or the validity of the sacraments at any time. I accept there was a need for reformation, I do not accept Luther's authority to change church doctrine.

I have investigated the teachings on the real presence of Jesus in the Euchrist, the primacy of Peter, Mary and the saints among other things, and accept them. Both Scott Hahn and David Currie have written in detail on these things if anyone is interested, a lot of it based on the early church fathers.

It is my belief that God has authorized human authority through the apostles and their successors and I choose to submit to it. It in no way elevates those given this authority above their creaturely status.

Anyway I hope that has clarified for some of you that I do have valid reasons for my conversion. Please understand I KNOW most if not all of you will disagree with the conclusions I have reached. I am not asking you to agree just explaining why I have decided to convert.

Grace and peace to you all.

 2011/4/14 15:27


Amen CyAn, AtG, BroTom and Whitestone.

If you want a great contemporary education on the RCC and some of it's apologists, read below.

Scott is slick, but if you know the Word and are listening to the Holy Ghost, you can spot his errors. Excellent research and "rightly dividing of the Word".

There are many, many schisms in the Catholic Church. They don't have the "unity" that they would like everyone to believe. Besides, unity at the cost of truth, is not a unity that the Lord Jesus supports.

Furthermore, UNIFORMITY is not UNITY.

On bereanbeacon dot org you will find these articles.

Lefthand side under Apologists.

Scott Hahn: The Man and the Myth
The Lost Soul of Scott Hahn
The Desire of Scott Hahn
The Deception of Scott Hahn
The Damnation of Scott Hahn
Scott Hahn's Route into Apostasy
The Aberrant World of Karl Keating
Marcus Grodi, Religionist or Rascal
Francis Beckwith is Analyzed

Main page of bereanbeacon dot org
Richard Bennet's Testimony
From Tradition to Truth


 2011/4/14 17:58



Can you please explain what you mean by there being "many schisms among the Catholic church"?

If there is a schism, they are not in the Catholic church. For example the schism between what is now Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches.

There is not uniformity among the Catholic church but there is unity. The Eastern Catholic and some Coptic Christians follow their own lithugy, but are in full communion with the Holy See in Rome.

 2011/4/14 20:12


I will rephrase.

There are many divisions WITHIN the RCC.

Having grown up in an RCC family and just reading everyday Catholic newsletters, I know this all too well. It is very public knowledge. Not a secret.

You're joining them, so you will find out. Jesus calls us to join HIM, not a religious organization. Jesus does not endorse the RCC teachings. The catholic Jesus is a different story.


 2011/4/14 21:55

Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida



The unity is within the True Catholic Church, not the Roman Catholic Church.

Please read:

The True Church By J.C. Ryle D.D. (1816-1900) Do you belong to the one true Church; to the Church outside of which there is no salvation? I do not ask where you go on Sunday; I only ask, "Do you belong to the one true Church?"

Where is this one true Church? What is this one true Church like? What are the marks by which this one true Church may be known? You may well ask such questions. Give me your attention, and I will provide you with some answers.

The one true Church is composed of all believers in the Lord Jesus. It is made up of all God's elect-of all converted men and women of all true Christians. In whomsoever we can discern the election of God the Father, the sprinkling of the blood of God the Son, the sanctifying work of God the Spirit, in that person we see a member of Christ's true Church.

It is a Church of which all the members have the same marks. They are all born of the Spirit; they all possess "repentance towards God, faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ," and holiness of life and conversation. They all hate sin, and they all love Christ. They worship differently and after various fashions; some worship with a form of prayer, and some with none; some worship kneeling, and some standing; but they all worship with one heart. They are all led by one Spirit; they all build upon one foundation; they all draw their religion from one single Book-that is the Bible. They are all joined to one great center-that is Jesus Christ. They all even now can say with one heart, "Hallelujah"; and they can all respond with one heart and voice, "Amen and Amen."

It is a Church which is dependent upon no ministers upon earth, however much it values those who preach the Gospel to its members. The life of its members does not hang upon church membership, and baptism, and the Lord's Supper-although they highly value these things, when they are to be had. But it has only one great Head one Shepherd, one chief Bishop-and that is Jesus Christ. He alone, by His Spirit, admits the members of this Church, though ministers may show the door. Till He opens the door no man on earth can open it-neither bishops, nor presbyters, nor convocations, nor synods. Once let a man repent and believe the Gospel, and that moment he becomes a member of this Church. Like the penitent thief, he may have no opportunity of being baptized; but he has that which is far better than any water-baptism-the baptism of the Spirit. He may not be able to receive the bread and wine in the Lord's Supper; but he eats Christ's body and drinks Christ's blood by faith every day he lives, and no minister on earth can prevent him. He may be excommunicated by ordained men, and cut off from the outward ordinances of the professing Church; but all the ordained men in the world cannot shut him out of the true Church.

It is a Church whose existence does not depend on forms, ceremonies, cathedrals, churches, chapels, pulpits, fonts, vestments, organs, endowments, money, kings, governments, magistrates, or any act of favor whatsoever from the hand of man. It has often lived on and continued when all these things have been taken from it; it has often been driven into the wilderness or into dens and caves of the earth, by those who ought to have been its friends. Its existence depends on nothing but the presence of Christ and His Spirit; and they being ever with it, the Church cannot die.

This is the Church to which the Scriptural, titles of present honor and privilege, and the promises of future glory, especially belong; this is the body of Christ; this is the flock of Christ; this is the household of faith and the family of God; this is God's building, God's foundation, and the temple of the Holy Spirit. This is the Church of the first-born, whose names are written in heaven; this is the royal priesthood, the chosen generation, the peculiar people, the purchased possession, the habitation of God, the light of the world; the salt and the wheat of the earth; this is the "Holy Catholic Church" of the Apostle's Creed; this is the "One Catholic and Apostolic Church" of the Nicene Creed; this is that Church to which the Lord Jesus promises, "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matt 16:18), and to which He says, "I am with you always, even unto the end of the world" (Matt 16:18; 28:20).

This is the only Church which possesses true unity. Its members are entirely agreed on all the weightier matters of religion, for they are all taught by one Spirit. About God, and Christ, and the Spirit, and sin, and their own hearts, and faith, and repentance, and necessity of holiness, and the value of the Bible, and the importance of prayer, and the resurrection, and judgment to come-about all these points they are of one mind. Take three or four of them, strangers to one another, from the remotest corners of the earth; examine them separately on these points; you will find them all of one judgment.

This is the only Church which possesses true sanctity. Its members are all holy. They are not merely holy by profession, holy in name, and holy in the judgment of charity; they are all holy in act, and deed, and reality, and life, and truth. They are all more or less conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. No unholy man belongs to this Church.

This is the only Church which is truly catholic. It is not the Church of any one nation or people; its members are to be found in every part of the world where the Gospel is received and believed. It is not confined within the limits of any one country, or pent-up within the pale of any particular forms or outward government. In it there is no difference between Jew and Greek, black man and white, Episcopalian and Presbyterian-but faith in Christ is all. Its members will be gathered from north, and south, and east, and west, in the last day, and will be of every name and tongue-but all one in Jesus Christ.

This is the only Church which is truly apostolic. It is built on the foundation laid by the Apostles, and holds the doctrines which they preached. The two grand objects at which its members aim are apostolic faith and apostolic practice; and they consider the man who talks of following the Apostles without possessing these two things to be no better than sounding brass and a tinkling cymbal.

This is the only Church which is certain to endure unto the end. Nothing can altogether overthrow and destroy it. Its members may be persecuted, oppressed, imprisoned, beaten, beheaded, burned; but the true Church is never altogether extinguished; it rises again from its afflictions; it lives on through fire and water. The Pharaohs, the Herod’s, the Nero’s, the bloody Mary’s, have labored in vain to put down this Church; they slay their thousands, and then pass away and go to their own place. The true Church outlives them all and sees them buried each in his turn. It is an anvil that has broken many a hammer in this world, and will break many a hammer still; it is a bush which, often burning, yet is not consumed.

This is the Church which does the work of Christ upon earth. Its members are a little flock, and few in number, compared with the children of the world; one or two here, and two or three there. But these are they who shake the universe; these are they who change the fortunes of kingdoms by their prayers; these are they who are the active workers for spreading the knowledge of pure religion and undefiled; these are the life-blood of a country, the shield, the defense, the stay and the support of any nation to which they belong.

This is the Church which shall be truly glorious at the end. When all earthly glory is passed away then shall this Church be presented without spot before God the Father's throne. Thrones, principalities, and powers upon earth shall come to nothing; but the Church of the first-born shall shine as the stars at the last, and be presented with joy before the Father's throne, in the day of Christ's appearing. When the Lord's jewels are made up, and the manifestation of the sons of God takes place, one Church only will be named, and that is the Church of the elect.

Reader, this is the true Church to which a man must belong, if he would be saved. Till you belong to this, you are nothing better than a lost soul. You may have countless outward privileges; you may enjoy great light, and knowledge-but if you do not belong to the body of Christ, your light, and knowledge, and privileges, will not save your soul. Men fancy if they join this church or that church, and become communicants, and go through certain forms, that all must be right with their souls. All were not Israel who were called Israel, and all are not members of Christ's body who profess themselves Christians. Take notice, you may be a staunch Episcopalian, or Presbyterian, or Independent, or Baptist, or Wesleyan, or Plymouth Brother-and yet not belong to the true Church. And if you do not, it will be better at last if you had never been born.

You should not want only a "show of faith,'' with all the pomp and fashion of Roman catholic mass, but to "have Faith" in the cleansing Blood of Jesus. I pray you will reconsider your decision.

white stone


 2011/4/14 21:55Profile


Andie, google "Divisions in the Catholic Church" and you will get plenty of links to keep you busy for a long time.

A lot of the information is written by Roman Catholics, themselves.

What you posted about the True Catholic (Universal) church was right on, Whitestone.


Also, goto and click on Church History on the left hand side. Great compilation of RCC Church History and the Persecutions.

 2011/4/14 22:10

 Why True Protestants REJECT the pope!

Ian Paisley speaks:

 2011/4/14 23:37

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