| Poster | Thread |
| | Re: | | Mguldner wrote: "So what then is our responsibility, the same as its always been submission to God and Reliance on God."
That is the real issue. Isn't that what it means for Jesus to be Lord and Savior?
"As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving." (Colossians 2:6-7)
"But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen." (2 Peter 3:18)
"I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me." (John 15:1-4)
When we abide in Christ his life will increase in us, and thus our fruitfulness will. Yet with that comes the purging, which to my understanding is God exposing more of what is not Christ, but rather of our flesh through our circumstances and the Holy Spirit's instruction. That is meant to drive us closer to Christ and make us more fruitful. The issue isn't are we perfect and flawless?; but are we responding to God's dealings with us to make us more fruitful (i.e. the fruit of the Spirit, the life of Christ) in humility, or are we living our own way and/or in our own strength.
"For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby." (Hebrews 12:6-11- best to just read all of Hebrews 12).
When we're abiding in Christ and under God's grace, sin is not our Master (Romans 6:14). That means we're not defeated by sin and we are walking in victory in the Spirit, but we haven't arrived at the goal yet (Philippians 3). That victory though is by God's power, something the Israelites in the Old Testament didn't have. That is the burden they had upon them that is not laid upon us.
I know what you mean about confessing every sin. We can't discount 1 John 1:9, but I think the view you heard makes God seem like an angry police officer who is just waiting to catch us on a technicality, rather than a caring Father. Maybe someone has something to share about how they were freed regarding that perception. We have to remember that God is for us when we're in Christ (Romans 8:32) and the big issue of 1 John 1:9 is do we humble ourselves or harden ourselves if and when we sin.
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|  2011/3/10 6:07 | | UntoBabes
Member
Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1035
Oregon
| | Re: | | Quote:
I was on facebook and their was a talk on positional sanctification and sanctification in a believer.
bible4life, This is an article I found helpful that addresses " Positional Sanctification ". The character "Hank" represents some one who believes in " Positinal Sanctification"
I hope this will help you understand the error of such teaching.
"Much to the dismay of those who try to make themselves a license for sin, the Bible says that we are to be practically righteous, not practically sinners.
"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning." 1 John 3:7-9
Our true character is shown by our conduct. If it was true that we could continue to live as sinners and still be classified as righteous, John could not make this distinction. True conversion not only is intelligent but dramatically effects' our lifestyle.
The word translated right is the same root word as righteous and is the same righteousness imputed to believers in Romans three and four, real practical righteousness. Some will insist that the gospel makes no provision for making us righteous, but as we see in this passage there is a clear connection. A connection that insists that one is useless without the other.
Some ministers will go so far as to leave you with the impression that the only practical difference between a Christian and an unbeliever is a set of purely intellectual or emotional issues. This is a grave error. The scripture is plain: your conduct reveals whether you're righteous or of the devil. I'm not saying you have to work to receive Christ's righteousness. I am saying that someone who has received Christ's righteousness will live as a child of the light and bear the fruit of righteousness. Though all of us can still sin, the standard we should measure ourselves against is righteousness.
Redemption
The Bible teaches that;
"Christ gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people zealous for good works" (Titus 2:14).
In the theology Hank holds to, Christ's righteousness is not imputed to us in a way that would purify us from all wickedness.
Rather in Hanks view we can keep much wickedness in our lives, only now God is blind to it. Therefore we can continue living the life of a sinner while being viewed as righteous.
Hank told me that:
"We are positionally accounted as righteous before God because we have transferred to our account all of the righteousness of Christ, so when God looks at us he doesn't see us in the context of our sin, but he sees us in the context of the righteousness of Christ. But practically we still sin and we will till the day we die."(2)
This is truly prostituting the bible, 1 John 3:7-9 would have to be mutilated to fit in with this theology. Wouldn't the Devil laugh to read-He who lives sinfully is righteous even as he is righteous? He who is sinful is practically of the devil, but God cannot see that and sees you as righteous, if you believe Hank's theology, the whole idea is revolting.
Spiritual Healing
Despite Hanegraaff insisting that we can not be practically righteous, he himself frequently explains one of the reasons why we can and should be practically righteous, while being blind to the implications. Hank has pointed out that the Faith teachers have banked on Isaiah 53:5 as a guarantee of physical healing. In his reply to this he has on several occasions pointed out that the healing referred to in this verse is spiritual rather then physical. In the context of pointing this out he often quotes 1 Peter 2:24-25. The truth is Christ has provided for our spiritual healing so we might "die to sin and live to righteousness".
"Isaiah 53:5 say's by his stripes we are healed so the question is what does it mean to say that I am Healed? What does the word rapha actually mean, and the word rapha actually means that we are healed not physically of necessity but spiritually. You determine the meaning of rapha in this context by what the broader context of what Isaiah is trying to say really is, right. and if you look at the context, in the broader context you find out what is being talked about is spiritual healing. What are we being healed of? Well were being healed of transgressions and Iniquities . . . You can take this beyond Isaiah 53 you can take this to 1 Peter 2:24-25 Because really you have peter rephrasing what Isaiah said. Peter said 'he himself bore our sins on his body so that we might die to sin but live to righteousness, by his wounds we have been healed. You were like sheep that had gone astray, but you have returned to the shepherd and overseer of your souls'. Now Peter's theme is absolutely crystal clear, Christ bore our sin's not our sicknesses." (3)
Hank made the same point in his book.(4) The point I am trying to make is this. Some people seem to be teaching Christ bore our sin's so that we could live in sin (practically sinners ) but be considered righteous. This is not the word of God. The bible teaches he bore our sins so we could die to sin and live to righteousness. It amazes me that Hank could quote this verse and yet so often teach the opposite. This is how we should live.
"For you were once darkness but now you are light in the Lord Live as children of light for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness righteousness and truth . . . have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness rather expose them." Ephesians 5 8-12
Instruments of Righteousness
Beyond a doubt the word righteous does imply a title or position, but it is only applicable as related to practice. IE a ruler rules one who does not is not really a ruler. I am not at odds with the statement that we are positionally righteous; I believe it, but we should also be practically righteous. We are told to offer ourselves to God as "Instruments of righteousness" in Rom. 6:13. If someone says they're born again, and have received Christ's righteousness, he should bear the fruit of a practical righteousness. This is clearly the result of a true work of Christ in the heart. This righteousness was received when we turned from sin and put our faith in Christ.
We received justification through eternal redemption (being set free from sin) Romans 3:24. We entered the new covenant:
"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time say's the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." Hebrews 10:16
While Calvin seemed to of felt content promoting a justification that would remove consequences while only partially changing the heart God is not. While the blood of goats and bulls only dealt with the external, the blood of Christ does much more.
"The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so they are outwardly clean. How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God" Hebrews 9:13-14.
The Scripture makes it clear that, while the old covenant only made provision for outward cleansing, the new covenant in Christ has provided for inward cleansing, that we might live for God.
Did Christ Die in our Place, or Obey in our Place? (See also Justification)
When the Bible speaks about the gospel, Christ's vicarious atonement and redemption are central; in contrast, when Hank speaks about the gospel, the main emphasis is on what he considers Christ's substitutionary obedience.
"He lived the perfect life in our place which we could never live, and he offers it to you (Mark) as an absolutely free gift"(5)
This sounds very nice, but as we examine this idea, you can see the wolf under the sheep's clothing. We both agree that Christ's death was vicarious; but his life is imparted - not substituted - in the sense that he understands it (Rom 8:11). To quote Finney:
"The idea is absurd and impossible for this reason: Jesus Christ was bound to obey the Law for himself. It was his duty to love the Lord his God with all his heart, soul, mind and strength and to love his neighbor as himself. If he had not done so, it would have been sin.
Although Christ owed perfect obedience to the Law himself, and could not therefore obey as our substitute, yet since he perfectly obeyed, he owed no suffering to the Law or to the Divine Government on his own account. He could therefore suffer for us. This is the true basis for the Gospel - not that Christ obeyed for us, but that he died for us. He took the punishment we deserved.
The doctrine of imputed righteousness represents God as requiring:
A) That Christ should render perfect obedience for us
B) That he should die just as if no such obedience had been rendered.
C) That we should repent and obey
Does God exact triple service?"(6)
Why would someone invent such a philosophy as this? The Bible does represent righteousness as being imputed to us, but those who hold to this doctrine seem to want righteousness without redemption. It seems that they have devised an understanding of imputed righteousness that eliminates the need for true repentance. Perhaps this relieves them from a sense of obligation; perhaps this allows them to continue in sin without a deep sense that this is offensive to God. Whatever the reason, in their understanding obedience can be looked at with fondness as a nice ideal, while at the same time be rejected as unnecessary.
It is foolish to say that he obeyed in our place for him to do that he would have to live in our place. This would not make us practically righteous it would make us practically nonexistent, I hope you are getting the picture. The basis for this misunderstanding lies in a principle of responsibility.
If a man named John sent flowers to his wife, though another delivers them he gets the credit, because he is the agent responsible for the act. If John sends an assassin to kill his wife, both have guilt. In this case John may not have pulled the trigger but he is responsible for the murder because he initiated it. In the first case the delivery driver acted (obeyed) in his place, In the second case the assassin obeyed in his place. A more biblical example is found when we consider how David arranged for Uriahs death. This principle is at the basis for Hank's belief that Christ obeyed (Lived his life) in our place. The principle is valid, but only for the person who appointed the act. In the case of our Lord it was the Father who appointed him;
"I have come down from Heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me" (John 8:38).
In the sense above mentioned the Son acted in his Fathers place. Both roles portray pure virtue, and not one of us can take credit for what they have done. Do I need add more? It is plain that Jesus did not do our will he did the Fathers.
"Our own righteousness, we confess, is "filthy rags," and Jesus said, "Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter Into the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:20). We must have the inwrought righteousness of Christ. Not a robe simply, that covers our unrighteousness, leaving us sinful and unholy, but His righteousness imparted to us. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9). If all unrighteousness is cleansed away, then certainly there is righteousness in its place. If the atonement of Christ cannot get down as deep as sin has gone, it must be a failure. But who would say that Christ made a failure in His atonement?" (7)
Part II Part III
stopsinning.net
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Fifi
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| | 2011/3/10 10:43 | Profile | TrueWitness
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Joined: 2006/8/10
Posts: 661
| | Re: | | I just have to say that I agree with Hank's theology here and disagree with idea of salvation by sanctification being promoted by Finney and others. God's grace is not a license to purposefully practice a lifestyle of sin. But even sincere and conscientious Christians will sin from time to time every day and God's grace which we have in the gospel will impute or credit to our account the righteousness of Christ. This is what salvation by faith is all about. To reject this is to go back to Old Testament legalism: salvation by works. If you reject Christ's righteousness being imputed to us, then you must be trusting in your own righteousness. Our righteousness is as filthy rags. Jesus said "Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter Into the kingdom of heaven." The only way we can meet this requirement is by receiving the imputed righteousness of Christ by faith. I repeat for emphasis: we do not abuse the grace of God in order to live sinful lifestyles and those who do so will be told, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." |
| | 2011/3/10 12:14 | Profile | Lysa
Member
Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!
| | Re: My soul | | Quote:
I just this terrible feeling that the end times are here and the rapture might be coming soon and that here is me getting worse and hopeless.
Forget about the rapture; your focus is on the wrong "THING." You could die in a car wreck or a freak accident on any given day. Are you (or any of us for that matter) ready to meet our God face to face?
Quote:
I think sometimes I come to this forum with a prayer request thinking your prayers our going to change me, maybe that is a fault of mine. A few times I cried out to God with all my heart to God and he answered me. Can someone please give me wisdom here or something...
I believe you gave yourself all the wisdom you need:
A. few. times. I. cried. out. to. God. with. ALL. MY. HEART. and. he. answered. me.
Repentance is a lifestyle. When you make a mistake ask God to forgive you and then GO ON! You are no good to God in this state that you are in.
Now, when you do sin, when you repent ASK your Father in Heaven to reveal to you why you do what you do. And keep asking Him. Seek Him with all your heart and wait for an answer and if you mess up while you are waiting, start all over again and ask Him to reveal to you why you do what you do.
Brother, God doesn't hate you for messing up; He is not like people. He does want you to go to Him and not be like Adam hiding in the bushes from the shame.
Be honest with God about everything, every little or big sin. He cannot work with you if you (or I) keep lying to Him about it; by that I mean giving excuses or blaming other people or things about why it happened. We sin because we want to sin, period. So be honest with Him.
God bless you brother, I expect to hear wonderful things in the coming months about your relationship with God! He has high hopes for you and so do the rest of us!
Sister Lisa
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| | 2011/3/10 12:25 | Profile | mama27
Member
Joined: 2010/11/20
Posts: 1482
| | Re: My soul | | My heart aches to hear your anguish. Others who are more eloquent than I have commented much to your condition, and given wise words of advice. I do not have advice, but I will continue in prayer for you. I have personally been through similar struggles as you mention with 2 of my own children. I talk and talk and pray and pray and give verse upon verse, but no change - over many months, perhaps even a couple years. All I know to say to that is that yes, God requires us to come IN FAITH, and AS LITTLE CHILDREN, but still it is a work of God in the human heart, and in HIS time, not ours. Don't ever feel you are a burden to us. One human soul is worth everything. I will be praying that God will meet you right where you are. HE LOVES YOU!!! |
| | 2011/3/10 14:52 | Profile | mama27
Member
Joined: 2010/11/20
Posts: 1482
| | Re: | | Quote:
with 2 of my own children
I wanted to add that my children are grown, and that their struggling was in their early 20's. This was adult struggling.
Quote:
come IN FAITH, and AS LITTLE CHILDREN
I just wanted to clarify again as I hope I didn't come across as talking down to you.....I just meant that the most lofty, or intellectual among us cannot "get to God".....I was only trying to say that in all your struggling, it is that utter innocence and helplessness of a child that is able to come to God.
I am finding it difficult to express myself on this forum in a way that is clear. I find that I am getting myself in trouble, when my heart intends only good. Anyway, I am praying, and will continue. |
| | 2011/3/10 21:40 | Profile |
| | Re: | | mama, I pray you don't feel that way - as what you've said in your last line.
Quite the contrary, you've been a blessing and I've appreciated all of your posts.
Don't know if you've seen this one or not -
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=37893&forum=35&7
On the thread referred to on this link, I wanted to just post "pray without ceasing" but decided to not post and then, here you came with that grand-slammer. Beautiful!
Bless you and bible4life, through the prayers of the Saints. |
| | 2011/3/10 23:38 | | mama27
Member
Joined: 2010/11/20
Posts: 1482
| | Re: | | No - I hadn't seen it - I am humbled.....that's just the way it is to me. I don't know what to say....I don't have eloquence - it is just my heart...Thank you so much for your kind words.... |
| | 2011/3/10 23:52 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Interesting article.I see your point, but was not the point of all of Romans to point out like True Witness said that salvation is by faith alone in Christ and that even Abraham was justified by faith and belief in God that was accounted to him righteousness. Of course a true Christian will not see it as a license to sin, I think that is misunderstood that some believe that, while some actually do believe that many don't. Because Christ has saved them they want to live righteously, but see here is the problem I see here is that some think our works our keeping us in a continued justification before God and only those who do so will be saved. I think that the scriptures tell us that Christ came to set us free from the bondage of sin and also that he made us alive to righteousness, but this I don't think this means you our in a perfect moral condition. I mean Paul did not speak to the Corinthians with this language like this while they were in sin, though he did tell them to repent.I am open to changing my mind Lord willing to whatever is true, but I see this instead of the grace of Christ who saved and had mercy on us to now us being the one who saves ourself by our continued state of righteousness in Christ. It is interesting topic and I want to study more into it, but still i am not saying I want to sin at all, I think we need to take the scriptures in context, I look at romans and galatians and see it is all Christ. |
| | 2011/3/11 0:59 | |
| | Re: | | Hi bible4life,
You wrote "but was not the point of all of Romans to point out like True Witness said that salvation is by faith alone in Christ and that even Abraham was justified by faith and belief in God that was accounted to him righteousness."
That statement is not wrong, but it's important to remember that in Romans Paul linked faith with obedience to God. You'll also see in Hebrews 11 that every example the writer gives of faith in the Old Testament, including Abraham, acted in obedience to God.
"By whom (Jesus Christ our Lord- vs.3) we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name" (Romans 1:5)
"For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed" (Romans 15:18)
"For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil." (Romans 16:19)
And the book ends: "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen." (Romans 16:25-27)
I encourage you to read Romans and the entire New Testament again and see the constant link between faith and obedience to God. The issue in Romans, Galatians, Hebrews isn't do we need to obey God? But rather how do we obey God? By earning God's favor by our works in the flesh or by yielding to Christ and receiving his life by the Spirit. The one is striving in human power and the other dying with Christ and receiving Christ's resurrection life. Christ's resurrection life always fulfills the righteousness of the law; not by striving to keep the commandment, but by Christ's power within. Compare Romans 8:1-4 with Matthew 5:17-20, 7:21-23.
"And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it." (Mark 8:34-35)
We can't separate responding to this call from Christ from the justification by faith preached by the Apostles. If you're dead with Christ you're forgiven, belong to him, have his life (eternal life), and are saved. If you're not, you can work for a million years and it will never atone for your past sins nor make you acceptable to God. Many have taken isolated verses from the epistles and based their gospel on those, rather than considering the kingdom of God which Jesus preached (the commandments he gave) and the epistles taken in their entirety. The result has been the easy-believism that has been in America for decades and a nation where so many claim to be saved by faith in Christ, but not many evidence the fruit of the Spirit. Jesus' death was necessary to atone for our sins and reconcile us to God, but it with the intent that he rise again, ascend to heaven and put his life in us. That's the significance of receiving the Holy Spirit and having the witness of the Spirit. The Spirit is given to those who obey Jesus (Acts 5:32). The effects of the work of the cross and the gift of the Spirit and its fruit can never be separated (Acts 2:38-39).
If the issue is Are you perfect morally or not?; then ultimately either no one is saved or your fruit doesn't matter at all; just your profession of Christ. However, when the issue is, Are you dead with Christ to self and living in the Spirit by Christ's power?; that's the real issue the New Testament focuses on as what determines one's salvation.
Edit: Good to add Galatians 6:14-16 here:
14But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
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| | 2011/3/11 3:19 | |
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