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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : A quick thought on the abomination

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 docs

i could have PM'ed this, but i just want to say, i love your mind, and heart, the way your pen moves.

May God bless you richly, neil

 2011/2/14 16:23
sidadm
Member



Joined: 2011/2/7
Posts: 31


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I've heard those same things and who knows what will come of all that but what concerns me even more is the growing trend of "Zionism bashing" in the evangelical world.



Zionism bashing is bashing the Jews and their desire for a homeland and specifically the God-given homeland that was promised to them.

I am not bashing Zionists (Jews).

I am merely saying that I think the Christian "Zionists" are being duped by incorrect endtime eschatology.

Hope that's clear.

That's all.

 2011/2/14 16:50Profile









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You're right on the multiple fulfillment, docs. Much of Hebrew prophecy is pattern. The abomination of desolation has already happened a few times, and will happen again, leading up to an ultimate fulfillment. Interesting topic for sure though.

What a dangerous thought.

When will Christ come to die for the sins of the people, AGAIN?

And when we think that that is foolish, who are we to pick and choose what is to be multiple fulfillment and those that are not?

Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

"Foretold of those days", there is nothing there that hints of a double, triple or a multiple future fulfillment of those events that were foretold for those days that they were speaking of.

We greatly err thinking that there are multiple fulfillment of scripture.

 2011/2/14 18:31









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We greatly err thinking that there are multiple fulfillment of scripture.



There is NO question that there are multiple fulfillments of some prophecies. One prophecy one fulfillment is a western philosophy being imposed on a Jewish book.

The abomination of desolation had already happened in part before the time of Jesus, with the Maccabees, yet Jesus said it would happen again, and it did. Twice. And it's going to happen again, with an ultimate fulfillment when THE antichrist comes.

Even some of the Messianic prophecies had prior fulfillments before they were fulfilled in Christ. Jesus was not the first one to fulfill, "Out of Egypt I called my son(Son)".

Not all prophecies will continue to be fulfilled, as yes, some have been fully fulfilled in Christ. But to deny multiple fulfillments only shows a lack of Hebrew perspective, Biblical history, and world history. Sorry to put it that way, but there's now way around it. It's something worth looking into. I can give/send you references if you'd be interested however.

 2011/2/14 18:53









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Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. (Isaiah 11:9)

Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.



Quote:
Revelation 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Revelation 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.



I believe the book Daniel sealed is the same book that Jesus opened in Revelations.

In my studies of this and I am not completely settled on any position but you have to have some reasoning here that the book Daniel sealed was for the time of the end. (No doubt the end of the days to which is spoken of in Dan 12:13).

And if my assumption is correct that the book that John saw that was sealed was the time of the end, for it says that John was commanded NOT to seal up his vision but to leave it open for the "time was at hand". He said that in the beginning of revelations and at the end, probably signifying the seriousness of the hour of whatever "end" that they were referring to.

If the book that John saw that was sealed was not Daniel's book that he sealed, where in scripture is another book that was sealed? Why is this important? Because everything that was written concerning Christ was spoken of beforehand by the Law and the Prophets. There should be nothing about Christ that should have been a surprise. They should have recognized Him, but He was rejected. There was only a few righteous men and women that did.

 2011/2/14 18:57









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yet Jesus said it would happen again

Where is this spoken that Jesus said that this would happen again?

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Even some of the Messianic prophecies had prior fulfillment before they were fulfilled in Christ. Jesus was not the first one to fulfill, "Out of Egypt I called my son(Son)".

Matthew 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

This was the prophecy concerning Christ, that IT MIGHT BE FULFILLED. The circumstances had created itself into a situation for this prophecy to be uttered by God to bring Jesus out of Egypt.

Israel means Prince with God, it's referring to Jesus and no other.

I know whence the teaching of the Midrash is derived from, it's from the mystic Jewish book entitled, the Kabbalah.

 2011/2/14 19:12









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Where is this spoken that Jesus said that this would happen again?



Mathew 24:15, Mark 13:14

Mind you these had already been partially fulfilled prior to Jesus speaking these things in the era of the Maccabees 200 or so years prior.

It was again fulfilled with AN abomination of desolation in 70 AD, and AN antichrist. Both partial fulfillments and shadows of an ultimate last days fulfillment. Unless it's just freak coincidence that history happened to repeat itself multiple times with the same people, in the same place, in the same fashion. Is the Dome of the Rock also coincidental, having absolutely nothing to do with Daniel's prophecy?

Quote:
it's referring to Jesus and no other.



Unfortunately the text itself disagrees with you here. In Hosea 11:1 to deny the literal meaning of the text in favor of ONLY the Spiritual is a faulty way of looking at Scripture (the same thing docs was talking about). Hosea was speaking about exactly what it sounded like he was speaking about. Israel and Egypt. Was it also about Christ? Yes. Was it 100% explicitly a Messianic prophecy with no other interpretation? No. Why was Hosea talking in a past tense? Grammatically and historically he was referencing The Exodus. Exodus 4:22-23

And just because the Kabbalah uses Midrash doesn't mean that the Kabbalah was with originator of it. It was well practiced in first century Judaism, and there's strong evidence that the Gospel writers used it as well. The book of John takes on an entirely new dimension when you see it as a Midrash of the book of Genesis. The old creation and the new creation. Mathew's use of Hosea is more of an argument FOR the use of Midrash than against it. You don't have to believe any of it, but unless you've studied into it very extensively, I wouldn't advise making up your mind so quickly.

To say that Daniel's prophecy has had no fulfillment in any way so far is to deny history.

 2011/2/14 20:26
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2227


 Re:

Hi All,
Just to say John the Baptist preached that Jesus was coming as the Lamb and coming to Judge.
He was right except what he didnt see was that he was coming twice,once as a sacrifice and once as a Judge.
This is why he sent his disciples to Jesus to ask is it you or should we look for another because he could see the lamb but not the Judge.
This is a clear pattern of multiple fulfillment of prophesy,
Yours Staff

 2011/2/14 20:32Profile









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This is why he sent his disciples to Jesus to ask is it you or should we look for another because he could see the lamb but not the Judge.



EXACTLY RIGHT, staff!

And also, that was a great response post, docs. I agree with you fully.

 2011/2/14 20:38









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Midrash was the "method" used in writing the Kabbalah.

One of the 14 steps of Midrash, is to leave Scripture to personal interpretation and why even the Talmud, using the same 'method' of midrash contradicts itself, as each Rabbi that interpreted the Torah used it.
Touchy subject with some. Hopefully not with any here.

 2011/2/14 20:57





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