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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : 2THESS 2:7 Could Micheal the Archangel be the restrainer if not why not?

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savannah
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Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2265


 Re: "Church in the Wilderness", i.e. Israel


davidc,

You said,

"A man is a man; an angel is an angel and Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

Genesis 32:24-30 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Daniel 3:24,25 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Genesis 18:1-3 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

"And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, 'I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.'...Moreover He said, 'I am the God of your father -- the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God...Then Moses said to God, 'Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, "The God of your fathers has sent me to you," and they say to me, "What is His name?" what shall I say to them?' And God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM.' And He said, 'Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, "I AM has sent me to you."'" (Exodus 3:2-14).

"Then Manoah said to the Angel of the LORD, 'Please let us detain You, and we will prepare a young goat for You.'
And the Angel of the LORD said to Manoah, 'Though you detain Me, I will not eat your food. But if you offer a burnt offering, you must offer it to the LORD.' (For Manoah did not know He was the Angel of the LORD.)
Then Manoah said to the Angel of the LORD, 'What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?'
And the Angel of the LORD said to him, 'Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?'
So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the LORD. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on -- it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar -- the Angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. When the Angel of the LORD appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the LORD.
And Manoah said to his wife, 'We shall surely die, because we have seen God!'
But his wife said to him, 'If the LORD had desired to kill us, He would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering from our hands, nor would He have shown us all these things, nor would He have told us such things as these at this time.'" (Judges 13:14-23).

The "Angel of the LORD" is revealed to be the LORD Himself.

"In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the LORD before them."
(Zechariah 12:8).


Re: "Church in the Wilderness", i.e. Israel

Acts 7:37-40 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt, Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

Gal 6:15,16 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

1 Peter 2:5-10 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people;
[See Exodus 19:5,6] that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.(See Hos. 1:6,9,10 and 2:1,23)

And finally, may we continually have this Word before us,

James 3:1 My brothers do not be many teachers, knowing that we will receive greater judgment.

 2011/2/2 19:21Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2265


 Re: 2THESS 2:7 Could Micheal the Archangel be the restrainer if not why not?


staff,

"...are you saying yes or no?"

Assuredly and emphatically, I am saying to you, NO!

The Thessalonian believers to whom this letter was originally sent and read to, would have known of whom Paul was referring when he mentioned the restrainer.

2 Thess 2:3-6 Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, because that Day will not come unless first comes the falling away, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, the one opposing and exalting himself over everything being called God, or object of worship, so as for him "to sit in the temple of God" as God, setting forth himself, that he is God.(See Dan. 11:36; Eze. 28:2).
Do you not remember that I told you these things, I yet being with you? And now you know the thing holding back, for him to be revealed in his time.

Although we can, with great certainty, know of whom Paul was not referring to, the text in its context does not identify who the restrainer is.

What we do know from the text is:

What restrains translates "that which is right now continuously restraining" (the language used is the present participle).

It literally translates, "to hold down or hold back." And the gender is neuter, which emphasizes the force exerted in restraining something. We then read, 'He who restrains' in which the gender is masculine.

Now indicates that this restraining power was active in Paul's day at that very moment.

Again, I'd emphasize that the text be read in its context. To do so simply does not allow for the erroneous interpretation that futurism has imposed upon it(See vs.3-6 above).

I have found Thomas Manton's sermon on this passage helpful(SERMON V - 2 THES. II. 5-7). Below is an excerpt of that sermon:

"To reprove them that think this is a curious point not to be searched into. Why then did God reveal it, and that so often by St Paul, by St John, in so many prophetical representations of it? Surely it is not curiosity to search into things revealed, but to intrude ourselves into things hidden, and which God hath put under a veil of secrecy. It is true men must know their measure, and not attempt to run before they can go, and venture upon obscure points before well versed in plain; and it is true, in more abstruse points, men must not rashly define, but soberly and modestly inquire, and compare predictions with plain events; this is no way culpable."
(if interested you may read the sermon at the following link: http://www.truecovenanter.com/manton/manton05.html )

I find myself agreeing with most if not all of what is written in Manton's sermon, the Holy Spirit Himself bearing witness with my spirit as to the Truth, He being the Spirit of Truth and God being the God of all Truth. Amen.

Bless God...

All ye His saints -


 2011/2/2 20:38Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2227


 Re: Savannah

hi,Thank you for taking the time to post again.I will definitely have a look at that link you gave,Much appreciated, Staff

 2011/2/2 20:53Profile
castling
Member



Joined: 2010/3/10
Posts: 31


 Re:

It is not clear to me that the Angel of the Lord is the same as an archangel. My understanding has been that the Angel of the Lord refers to Jesus, while Michael the archangel is an angel.

 2011/2/2 22:21Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Question; Is Michael the Arc Angel Jesus Christ? Only if He is could he be the restrainer. The Restrainer is the Holy Spirit of God. Not Jesus Christ or Michael. Who is at work in the Body of Christ? Christ is our life, finished. The Comforter is the one who restrains Satan because Christ defeated Him on the Cross when it comes to the Body of Christ His Church. The Comforter is our Teacher and the Power of the Life of Christ birthed in us, (born again). If the Holy Spirit leaves with the Body of Christ the Church, for He is no longer with us but in us, in the Rapture, who is left to restrain?

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2011/2/2 22:28Profile
davidc
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Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re:

Savannah, you are right, I should not have been so dogmatic.

Regarding the Restrainer, I agree completely with ChristInYou's remarks about the Holy Ghost and the church being raptured before the Man of sin is revealed

David.


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david

 2011/2/3 18:36Profile









 Re: 2THESS 2:7 Could Micheal the Archangel be the restrainer if not why not?


Quote:
the church being raptured before the Man of sin is revealed

Surely this is incompatible with 2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


?

 2011/2/4 10:55
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2227


 Re: incompatible

hi,this is an interesting point could you just expand on that a little if you have time,thanks staff

 2011/2/4 11:00Profile
davidc
Member



Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re:

2 Thess 2:1-3 (KJV)

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Alive-to-God, you say that verse 2 above is incompatible with the church's rapture before the man of sin is revealed. Perhaps if you saw that the phrase "that day" in verse 3 refers to "the day of Christ" in verse 2. Paul uses various phrases to indicate the time of judgement descibed in detail in chap 1 vs 7 to 10, including "the day of the Lord" and "the Day of Christ". Paul was concerned that the saints at Thessalonica had heard another message teaching that that day had come, or was present (which is a better translation of "at hand" ).

In this second chapter he shows them that certain events had to occur before that Day came, as Jesus also taught in Matthew 24.

Confusion only arises if we do not distinguish between the Lord's coming for us His church in the clouds, which is an imminent event (it could happen any day without any foretold event preceeding it); and the Day of the Lord, when He will come With His saints (we will appear with Him in glory), and His feet shall stand on the mount of Olives. The events descibed here in 2 Thess and Matthew 24 will preceed that Day of the Lord.

Can I say also that this is my understanding of what the bible teaches. I know that many other of my brothers and sisters in Christ,whom I love, see things differently and I do not want to get into any contention or arguement with any. If you see things another way, that's what these pages are for.

David


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david

 2011/2/4 17:50Profile









 Re: 2THESS 2:7 Could Micheal the Archangel be the restrainer if not why not?


Hi David,

I thank you for the invitation to discuss this further, but it is a tangent from the main topic, and, I would quite like savannah to comment if possible.

I cannot find support from the chapter and verses you referred to me, for pre-trib rapture, two comings of Christ, or for saints to be taken from the earth before the man of sin is revealed. Nothing in Daniel either.

 2011/2/4 20:08





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