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savannah
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 WHY DID CHRIST DIE?



WHY DID CHRIST DIE?


According to some people, Christ died to give all a chance of being saved! I do not know that I hate anything more in my soul than to hear that. It makes Jesus Christ so little–that He should do so much, and after all only to get us a chance of being saved. Why, if a man is set up in business, you see how often it happens that he fails in it; and if man cannot manage the paltry things of time and sense without being insolvent, what will he do with eternal realities? And if you come a little closer, when God "made man upright" and he had no sinful nature, what did he do with his innocence? He lost it all! And yet poor presumptuous man has the vanity to think you and I could manage the chance of being saved. What an insult it is to the Lord Jesus Christ to fix the eternal honour of God upon chance, and that chance to be managed by a poor sinful creature who is tumbling into half a dozen holes every hour of his life! NO, NO. Thanks be to God for immortal realities and certainties. WHAT IS SAID CONCERNING WHAT CHRIST HAS DONE? He has "put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself;" He has "finished transgression and made an end of sin;" He has "redeemed us from all iniquity;" He has "redeemed us from the curse of the law," from destruction and from the power of the devil; He has "obtained eternal redemption for us;" He has "redeemed us to God." To the honour of the Eternal Trinity it is said, not that the redeemed shall have a chance, but that the redeemed shall "come to Zion with songs, and everlasting joy shall be upon their heads, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away." The Lord Jesus Christ has done this "great" work; and He has gone to heaven shouting "Victory," for "God is gone up with a shout; the Lord with the sound of a trumpet." He rose from the grave as a demonstrative proof that sin was destroyed, law satisfied, God honoured, His people eternally and everlastingly saved. And the immortal honours of God unite in their salvation; therefore, He ever lives at the right hand of the Father to make intercession.
(William Gadsby)

 2011/1/19 18:22Profile
UntoBabes
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Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1035
Oregon

 Re: WHY DID CHRIST DIE?

Savannah,

Jesus did not merely make it possible for people to be saved. He truly saved and still saves, and have shed His real blood for those who put their trust in Him.

But you see, because God knows the end from the beginning, unlike you, me, and Mr. Gadsby, He therefore can speak of things as if they were already done. Christ is the lamb slain before the foundations of the world were laid.

Now, if you are implying that man can not have faith, just provide tha Scriptures for your beliefs, Within the CONTEXT please.

Do you truly believe that fallen people like you, me and Mr. Gadsby care about the glory of the Father more that the Lord Jesus Himself. Jesus came to show the glory of the Father. If any cared to show God's glory, it would be the Lord Jesus, yet we see Him ones and again saying to people " Great is your faith ", "I have never seen such faith in all of Israel", "your faith has made you whole".

Why do you think He didn't speak like a Calvinist. Could it be possible that He was not a Calvinist? He sure would have loved to have been taught of Calvin. What an opportunity He missed.


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Fifi

 2011/1/19 20:10Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Do you truly believe that fallen people like you, me and Mr. Gadsby care about the glory of the Father more that the Lord Jesus Himself. Jesus came to show the glory of the Father. If any cared to show God's glory, it would be the Lord Jesus, yet we see Him ones and again saying to people " Great is your faith ", "I have never seen such faith in all of Israel", "your faith has made you whole".


There is an important thing to keep always before our minds. We are not God nor can think as God, we are just weak, failing, moral men. "What is your life? Your are a mist that appears for a little while, and then vanishes." (James 4:14). I cannot improve on Scripture, I cannot figure it out better then the Apostles put it. The Epistles were written by the Holy Spirit and should I think I can arrange them better by my own mind? In the end I believe we need to submit our minds the God under the blood and allow Him to live His life through us. Christ came to redeem us, but then from what? He has redeemed us so that now we can be made into His image (conformed) on this earth for His glory.

I feel before even this thread goes further that we should watch this video. Christ has reedemed us by His blood and His offer of salvation is free to the world, we can surely agree on these statements for the Scriptures readily proclaim that fact. So in Christ is our unity and may we stay there and not divide, debate and have dissensions.

Dividing Brothers Hinders Personal Revival by Alan Martin
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/myvideo/photo.php?lid=2207


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2011/1/19 20:22Profile
UntoBabes
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 Re:

Brother Greg,
I thank you for this reminder. I will not post any further in this thread. I just wish people would read the Bible more, and the writings of man less.


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Fifi

 2011/1/19 20:34Profile
boG
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Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
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 Re: WHY DID CHRIST DIE?

Good advice, Greg.

I only wish to note that William Gadsby is assuming his opponents believe:

(1) God does not possess divine foreknowledge or know future events with certainty; He relies upon "chance."

And, (2) the (semi-)Pelagian doctrine is true. Such that man is working out his own salvation without the aids of Divine Grace.

Whoever these opponents may be (whatever they may be called, they are not "Arminian"), even though I am not a 5-pointer, we can happily agree in rebuking them. Just something to think about.


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Jordan

 2011/1/19 20:51Profile









 Re:

Not everyone is given the intellectual knowledge of why Christ died.

It starts out with just being a plain ole sinner in need of Jesus Christ to be saved.

I never knew the full salvation message of why Christ came, all I knew is that I needed to be saved.

But the scriptures tell us to grow in grace and in the knowledge of Jesus Christ.

So there is is a growing, and a learning about why Christ died and the many many facets of His person that one can learn about, it's unsearchable.

Most times it takes years for a believer to fully understand what Christ did, we need patience with one another. I still have a hard time grasping some elements of this glorious gospel.

 2011/1/19 22:06
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Most times it takes years for a believer to fully understand what Christ did, we need patience with one another. I still have a hard time grasping some elements of this glorious gospel.


Scripture plainly shows that to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ is not to understand theology about His death but to the implications and results of that death in actual spiritual life. Christ's death demands my all. Christ is leading us from glory to glory and faith to faith. He is conforming us to His precious image.

So when we look to Christ we see what God is making us into. There is an aspect that is foundation of God's mercy and grace and in the cross of Christ and His blood that we cannot just emulate but it is "our salvation". But we do not just look at these things for it provokes in us all sorts of grow in our knoweldge of the ways of Christ, His humility, His long-suffering, His patience, His love for others, His love for the lost world.

"So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me His prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God." - 2 Timothy 1:8 (niv)

Let us join with paul in this road of self-sacrifice and self-denial by the power of Christ and because of His cross. This is not our salvation but the only right response to it!


Let us watch this video saints:

Dividing Brothers Hinders Personal Revival by Alan Martin
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/myvideo/photo.php?lid=2207


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2011/1/19 22:12Profile
savannah
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 Re: WHY DID CHRIST DIE?...reply



boG wrote,

"I only wish to note that William Gadsby is assuming his opponents believe:"

"(1) God does not possess divine foreknowledge or know future events with certainty; He relies upon "chance.""

Gadsby nor myself do not assume your assumption above.

Nor do any of those who hold to God's Truth, as revealed by His Spirit in His Word, regarding these particular doctrines.

The two witnesses below confirm this:

"Perhaps the most plausible and subtle attempt to eliminate the sovereignty of God in the election of sinners to salvation is the interpretation that regards predestination as being based upon foreknowledge in the diluted sense of mere foresight. The classic passage in the argument is Romans 8:29, “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the first-born among many brethren”. It is contended that the foreknowledge spoken of is God’s divine foresight of the sinner’s faith, or, more comprehensively, the divine foresight of the fulfilment on the part of men of the conditions of salvation. Those whom He foreknew, it is therefore said, are those whom he foresaw as certain to fulfil the conditions of salvation. It is thought that this removes the reason or cause for the discrimination that exists among men from the sovereign discrimination and fore-ordination on the part of God and attributes it to the sovereign volition on the part of man."

"This matter, of course, concerns the eternal decree of God. The question really is: what determines whether a man is predestined to salvation? Is it a sovereign act on the part of God? Or is it an exercise of will on the part of man? If predestination is made contingent upon the divine foresight of a voluntary decision on the part of man, then it is that action on the part of man that accounts for discriminating foreordination on the part of God. In such a case, the sovereignty of God in the election to salvation is eliminated at the crucial point. Predestination, then, is made to rest upon a condition fulfilled by man."

"Suppose that for the sake of the argument we were to adopt this diluted interpretation of the word “foreknow” in Romans 8:29, we are not too readily to conclude that the absolute sovereignty of God in the matter of election to salvation would be eliminated. If we say that the meaning of the verb “foreknow” in Romans 8:29 is “whom He foresaw as believing and persevering”, we are not to think that we have ended the matter. For we are compelled to ask the further question: whence this faith which God foresees?"

"The answer which Scripture affords is that faith itself is the gift of God, not, of course, gift in some mechanical sense but gift in the sense of being graciously wrought in men by the operation and illumination of the Spirit (See e.g. John 3:3-8; 6:44, 45, 65; Eph. 2:8; Phil. 1:29). Since faith is thus given to some and not to others, and given to those who are equally unworthy with those to whom it is not given, the ultimate reason is that God is pleased thus to work in some and not in others. God’s foresight of faith, therefore, would presuppose an earlier decree on the part of God to work this faith in some and not in others. The foresight of faith would be preceded in God’s plan by His sovereign determination to give faith to them. And so, on a Biblical conception of the origin of faith, even foresight would throw us back on the sovereign determination of God to give faith."
(J. Murray)

“But,” say others, “God elected them on the foresight of their faith.” Now, God gives faith, therefore he could not have elected them on account of faith, which he foresaw. There shall be twenty beggars in the street, and I determine to give one of them a shilling; but will any one say that I determined to give that one a shilling, that I elected him to have the shilling, because I foresaw that he would have it? That would be talking nonsense. In like manner to say that God elected men because he foresaw they would have faith, which is salvation in the germ, would be too absurd for us to listen to for a moment."
(C. H. Spurgeon)

These are just two witnesses which are sufficient.If need be I might have brought several others forward from the hundreds or even thousands who would testify to these things as well.

To this end do I bring this everlasting and glorious truth forward,I will let Mr. Owen express as follows;

"Divers other reasons and testimonies might be produced to confirm our doctrine of God’s everlasting prescience; which,...we believe to be a good part of the foundation of all that consolation which God is pleased to afford us in this vale of tears. Amidst all our afflictions and temptations, under whose pressure we should else faint and despair, it is no small comfort to be assured that we do nor can suffer nothing but what his hand and counsel guides unto us, what is open and naked before his eyes, and whose end and issue he knoweth long before; which is a strong motive to patience, a sure anchor of hope, a firm ground of consolation."

With fear and trepidation I would also like to attempt to address UntoBabes quest., "Now, if you are implying that man can not have faith, just provide tha Scriptures for your beliefs, Within the CONTEXT please."

To borrow from what the writer above has written, "The answer which Scripture affords is that faith itself is the gift of God, not, of course, gift in some mechanical sense but gift in the sense of being graciously wrought in men by the operation and illumination of the Spirit (See e.g. John 3:3-8; 6:44, 45, 65; Eph. 2:8; Phil. 1:29)."

I'd add the following verses to the list as well;
Luke 10:22,Matthew 11:25-27,Matthew 19:25,26

Remember, Romans 10:17 says "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Salvation is by grace through faith. In light of Romans 10:17 see what Jesus says to those who are His in Mark 4:9-12

And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

And when he was alone,they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

And finally, Matthew 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Thanks be to God.

 2011/1/20 1:31Profile
boG
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Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: WHY DID CHRIST DIE?

I appreciate the clarification.

"the interpretation that regards predestination as being based upon foreknowledge in the diluted sense of mere foresight."

So then Gadsby is assuming his opponents believe:
(1) God either does not possess divine foreknowledge (only mere foresight) or does not know future events with certainty; He relies upon "chance."

Yet, my response remains the same. We are in agreement that this is still a mistaken position.

On a side note, Gadsby is imposing several doctrines, such as Limited Atonement (which is not even universally agreed upon within the Reformed traditions) and Unconditional Election onto his opponent's scheme and thus producing a "straw man." He did it again when he imposed Irresistible Grace onto his opponents concept of grace and the creature's will.

Quote:
In like manner to say that God elected men because he foresaw they would have faith, which is salvation in the germ, would be too absurd for us to listen to for a moment.


Here, again. Notice the way he equates "elected" with "salvation." He is presupposing that election is the sufficient cause of the believer's faith.

This all makes for an interesting read but not very convincing. Gadsby needed to address his opponents on the merit of their own doctrines and not presuppose the Calvinistic philosophy for defining "divine sovereignty."


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Jordan

 2011/1/20 3:09Profile





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