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eagle40
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Joined: 2011/1/19
Posts: 3


 romans 9 , what does it mean to you?

what does romans 9 mean? is it just in context to israel? if so then should'nt stories for eg like the great commision just be to those who Jesus was speaking to?

if so then should'nt the letters that paul wrote, just be to those specific churches?

of course not, right....right?

i think it all applies to us today.
read romans 9 and take your time, pray and ask the Holy Ghost for understanding. it is a glorius truth to be found. in fact the gracious new covenant. amen

 2011/1/19 2:27Profile
EverestoSama
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Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re: romans 9 , what does it mean to you?

Why not just be strait with what you're trying to say, bro?
Let's not play these cloak and dagger word games.

 2011/1/19 4:52Profile
knitefall
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Joined: 2010/3/2
Posts: 252


 Re:

more like, what does Romans 7 and 8 mean? There are very powerful and deep Spirit Truths in there that the most common experienced Christian ministers blow right by. Because of their neglect of Scripture like Rom 6, 7 and 8 we see much abuse on brethren to include condemnation. God's not angry! It's a New Cov't thing! yeah?

 2011/1/19 9:38Profile
savannah
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Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2067


 Re: romans 9 , what does it mean to you?


The question ought not to be suffixed with "...to you?"

It's not up for debate nor is it a matter of opinion.

It is The Word of God.

It is, "Thus Saith The LORD".

Romans 9 declares that God is God,that He hath done all things well,and that He does as He pleases with His creation.

May we take the apostles exhortation(vs.20)in that chapter and not [reply against] God. Reply against is the greek word antapokrinomai,it is a verb and means to contradict or dispute.

Bless God.

He hath done all things well (Mark 7:37)




 2011/1/19 9:42Profile
EverestoSama
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Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re:

Quote:
The question ought not to be suffixed with "...to you?"



Very good point.

 2011/1/19 10:46Profile
eagle40
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Joined: 2011/1/19
Posts: 3


 Re:

yeah, don't read to much into the title "what does it mean to you". I'm a very uneducated person so i did'nt post this for technical debate, nor debate at all.

i can be technical and say what makes you think I'm a "bro". you see what i mean. we figurtively speak all the time.

my point of the post is, sometimes we read the word of God, and some may say read it in context this letter was written to the elect or to the corithian church.

i ask you to be kind on this thread. all high hats should be hung up please. if i can confess i'm a tender person, so i don't appreciate the comments so far. as i am trying to grow in the Lord.

lets say i am new in the lord. very new, but so far not immpressed with his followers. arrogance and sarcasm is very prominent in the church. so far i have not found love on my first attempt to fellowship on here.

i agree to read chapter 6,7,8,9 the whole book of romans. its great. i actually find people avoid chapter 9. i read it recently and was blown away. yet i guess at peace. yes indeed God has done all things good. amen.

my conclusion is romans 9 is for us today and in fact a peacful scripture for me that God is in full control and been very gracious to me. thats the point when i see romans 9. grace, not me. the new covenant. its not about my promises to God, but His promises to me. the amazing grace of God found me in a deep dead tomb and he promised me, that He is bringing me into a new way of life that is loaded with divine order and His sovereinty. i'm at rest with God and love him so. he's been kind to me, in the mist of me a tender, emotional, x druggie, x felon etc.

 2011/1/19 11:29Profile
eagle40
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Joined: 2011/1/19
Posts: 3


 Re:

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. 10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

29And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.



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<< Romans 9 >>

 2011/1/19 11:42Profile
Renoncer
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Joined: 2010/6/26
Posts: 483


 Re:

Eagle40 said: "i ask you to be kind on this thread. all high hats should be hung up please. if i can confess i'm a tender person, so i don't appreciate the comments so far. as i am trying to grow in the Lord.
lets say i am new in the lord. very new, but so far not immpressed with his followers. arrogance and sarcasm is very prominent in the church. so far i have not found love on my first attempt to fellowship on here."


I'm glad you said that. Very convicting. I wonder how many people have felt the same way. May God have mercy on us.

 2011/1/19 12:34Profile
UntoBabes
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Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1032
Oregon

 Re:

Quote:
It is The Word of God.




Is not my word like fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? Jer 23:29


Quote:
It is, "Thus Saith The LORD".




But, What hath the Lord said?

2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.


Quote:
He does as He pleases with His creation.



But, what does please the Lord? Does God have an arbitrary pleasure?

Let us examine this.
If some one comes to your house and you offer them your Laz-Boy stuffed up recliner to sit and make themselves comfortable, but to your surprise he/ she passes by it without notice and sits on the floor instead.
You ask in utter shock. Friend, why did you not sit here instead. They answer by saying: It pleases me to sit on the floor. Am I not free to do as I please. ( please note, people do not speak that way because that would be rude, but God on the other hand can and does speak that way),

but back to our point. If that guest of your chooses to do as he/she pleases and sit on the floor instead of the comfortable chair you have offered them. Does that mean they do not have any reason behind their decision. Could it be that they are more comfortable on the floor? Or feel more secure?
Just because they chose the less likely option, it does not mean they did not have a reason behind their decision.
Now, let us go back to the Scriptures and see if Paul is saying that God’s pleasure is arbitrary ( meaning that He chooses people with complete disregard to their actions ), or does He have a reason for choosing them that is based on His fore-seen response on their part to His calling.
But first, let us examine what God did that was absolutely shocking . God chose the Gentile (sit on the floor), and passed by the Jew ( Laz-Boy chair). He hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
That no flesh should glory in his presence. 1 Cor 1: 27-29.

But why did God choose the foolish , weak, and base things of the world.
The answer to that is found in Rom 9: 30-33.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

It is not merely because they are despised, foolish and weak. It is because being despised, foolish, and weak led them to Christ by faith.

That is why Paul can say in 2 Cor 12:10
Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Does that mean that ALL those who are weak, poor, despised, …are the chosen.

By no means. Every rule has exceptions. In most cases these things drive man to faith. One of the most necessary requirements of faith is total surrender of the will, total reliance on God, total helplessness for failing to do the will of God. It is that awful cry one makes when he is met with the holiness of God that hates, and must judge sin. Woe is me, who can deliver me?

Do we have examples in the Scriptures to illustrate the connection between humility, which in the most part is the product of being despised, rejected and faith.

Let us see from the words that came out of the mouth of our Lord Himself.
We are given two examples from the Scriptures of people whom Christ has testified to have great faith.
One is found in Matt 8:5-12

5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so GREAT FAITH, no, not in Israel.
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


The other is found in Matt 15: 21-28

21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, GREAT IS THY FAITH: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.



So, Does Romans 9 declare that God is God, and that He hath done all things well, and that He does as He pleases with His creation.
Absolutely yes, But not in a Calvinistic sense. Calvinists hold to a false notion that God created man without the ability to have faith. Then He chose a few of the human race to redeem, based not on their faith, or anything in them, but rather on His arbitrary pleasure. To a Calvinist there is no difference between the Centurion and the Canaanite woman whose will were broken and the Pharisees who were filled with pride due to their trust in ELECTION.

A Calvinist may argue that ELECTION can not produce but gratitude for the sovereignty of God , but the Scriptures clearly teach us otherwise. The Pharasees believed very highly in the sovereignty of God, they believed they were God’s people, the elect according to the promises of God. But election has become an idol that separated them from God, and caused their rejection . It is amazing how these divine equations work.

You may ask. How do I know that I have not become like the pharasees ? How do I know that I am in idoletery?

Here is the answer:

Is God the dearest one to you. Is His Word the Book you cherish most. Do you examine your heart daily to see if you are in the faith? Are their not sins in your life you do not want to give up, but justify your hold of them with the fact that God chose you and loved you while you were still a sinner, then it must be okay with Him for you to keep holding onto them.

Do you think that humility is to believe you are the greatest sinner, but that is where it stops? Friend, if you think that, you are self deceived. And if you are teaching others that, then you are a deceiver as well. True humility is to empty yourself completey of self and live your life solely for the glory of God.

Oh blessed election that drive people to love God above all else. And Oh cursed election that drives them to justify their sin under the cloak of glorifying Him.



Disclaimer: I believe that God will restore His People the Jews according to the flesh as they become also Jews according to the spirit.

Rom 11:23, 28-32
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.







_________________
Fifi

 2011/1/19 13:07Profile
RainMan
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Joined: 2010/4/21
Posts: 227


 Re:

My contribution to this page would be what is the entire message of the Book of Romans? Why was this book inspired and what is the central message?

Isolating verses leads to isms Romans must be understood in its entirety much like the bible itself.


Stay Blessed

 2011/1/20 10:20Profile





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