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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Authenticity of Biblical Leadership

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dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

I thought Evan Roberts quit because of discouragement coming from notable pastors and thier critizism of the Welsh Revival and thier attack on him personally??


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D.Miller

 2004/11/16 0:00Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I thought Evan Roberts quit because of discouragement coming from notable pastors and thier critizism of the Welsh Revival and thier attack on him personally??


I think it is much more complex than this. You will get different answers from different places. My understanding is that he suffered an 'emotional breakdown' from which he never fully recovered. He spent many years living as part of the family of Jesse Penn-Lewis. Some see this as part of the problem and others see it as an attempted cure.

Jesse Penn-Lewis collaborated with/used Evans and his name appears on "War on the Saints". It is difficult to read the un-trimmed version without thinking about Evan Roberts and wondering how much of this book represents their view/judgement of the Welsh Revival, and of how much of this book represents someone's (Mrs Penn-Lewis?) diagnosis of Roberts himself.

The book divided (and probably still does) the Christians of its day. The writers saw the increase in demonic phenomena as proof of the soon coming of Christ; this was the devil's last gasp. It is sobering to remind ourselves that the book, with its expectations of the immediate return is now 70 years old.

This brief bio is a sobering read Evan Roberts

Jesse Penn-Lewis' writings are said to have influenced T Austin Sparks and Watchman Nee.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/11/16 3:10Profile
ZekeO
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Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
This brief bio is a sobering read



Indeed Ron, this last paragraph struck me: [i][b]May his life be both an example and a warning to all those who participate in revival to maintain humility; keep submissive to the Spirit; be accountable to godly men and women; remain true to their calling; use the gifts God has given, but be wise in the stewardship of their body.[/i][/b]

How easy it must have been, to just carry on when all heaven was breaking lose. It is very sad to see what happened to someone who really loved God:cry:


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2004/11/16 14:20Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

Thank you --that was a good read. I fully understand how he could have the results he had. That type of intense pressing into the Kingdom of God to obtain the blessing is still available.How ever , its been my experience that in America , anyway , people don't want something that they cannot control. Experiences seem to be a slippery slope in respect to maintaining a revival. I have to believe somewhere the Word of God has to become center giving some sense of balance to the experiences. Roberts intensity for that length of time is amazing, Jesus was perfectly balanced and knew when to withdraw from ministry. Often after long periods of fastings and prayer for the meetings I attend upon , the attack comes ever so subtile and more often than not they come in the form of feeling and spiritual experiences which neither line up with scripture nor the character of God.I don't think it has anything to do with humility, I don't believe Roberts had a pride problem,however I'd need to read more eyewitness accounts from those close to him to know for certain.I believe God allows this to hone our discernment and get us to better understand Him out of His Word. Just my thoughts.Thx Ron---God Bless, bro.Daryl


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D.Miller

 2004/11/17 16:31Profile
Holywarrior
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Joined: 2005/1/17
Posts: 20


 The Church...who's in charge?


Philologos wrote:
"The single, monarchical, bishop has no place in biblcal revelation."

The problem is that 95% od all churges these are run by a single, monarchial figure. Reverends, pastors etc. You name it.

No modern day church is being run like the New Testament churches.

This is part of the problem of the modern day church and the problems it faces.

People quote pastors and single figures but rarely will you here : "You know...our church believes"

If the church returns back to the place where nobody (no pastor, no reverend) is above somebody else, we will have churches which is not pastor driven but driven by people who are on fire for God.

Brother on Christ
Holywarrior

 2005/1/29 13:13Profile









 Re: The Church...who's in charge?

Where are the apostles, the prophets, the evagelists and teachers? Should not these have their place in the kingdom of God? Well, I think they certainly do. But most who are God called and not self proclaimed do not fit well in the kingdom of a monarch pastor who's kingdom and income are one and the same.
God gave leaders for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry. I ask you, are the saints perfected for the work of the ministry? Or are they simply spectators who show up 3 times a week to relieve their self perceived spirtual obligation and hope to be entertained in the process?

 2005/1/29 13:29
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: The Church...who's in charge?

Quote:
[u]holywarrior wrote:[/u] No modern day church is being run like the New Testament churches.


You would have to have 100% knowledge of the whole world to be able to make this statement, and there are certainly some which are trying.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/1/29 14:05Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re: The Church...who's in charge?

The church by in large is in a little trouble however, from what I know of leadership , most leadership will, if a man or woman who is faithful and displays a committed lifestyle toward Jesus Christ has something of wisdom ,direction , ect... from the Lord , I've seen these servants of God change or move in that direction. The important thing to rember is that they have to know the person through whom the gifting is coming.Alot of people want to church hop and be reconized immediately as some sort of super apostle and that is foolishness.


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D.Miller

 2005/1/29 14:37Profile
ZekeO
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Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re: The Church...who's in charge?

Quote:

If the church returns back to the place where nobody (no pastor, no reverend) is above somebody else, we will have churches which is not pastor driven but driven by people who are on fire for God.



My understanding on this is that within a eldership team there is one deligated leader, who is leading the team that is leading the church. For queries on presiding elder, do a quick study on the angels of Johns revelation.

It looks roughly like this:
church----->deacons--->elders---->lead elder
Note that they are on the same level as each other, the only difference is that one is in front taking the hits. Paul said follow me as follow Christ, same thing in NT church model.

Some churches have this as leadership:

deacons
|
|
elder

The deacons tell the elder/s what they want, and if they don't like the 'pastor' they ship him out. The kingdom of God is not a democracy neither is it a dictatorship like this:

Lead Elder/Pastor
|
|
Elders
|
|
deacons
|
|
church

The first model places allot of responsibility on the leader, because he has go before the people to lead them in and lead them out.


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2005/1/29 14:43Profile
ZekeO
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Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

Quote:

Lahry wrote:
God gave leaders for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry. I ask you, are the saints perfected for the work of the ministry? Or are they simply spectators who show up 3 times a week to relieve their self perceived spirtual obligation and hope to be entertained in the process?



I'll tell you how NCMI started, it was a bunch of men who met together to build friendship and share their hearts together, out of that environment the individual giftings of the men were recognised by the rest of the team. They realised that they had a common vision to see the nations won and discipled for Christ's return. Out of those meetings together was relationships forged which form the basis of anything that the team get involved in.

The basis for all ministry is relationship with God and with the churches into which they minister.

The goal of christian leadership is that the saints are equipped to fulfill works of ministry that God has prepared in advance for them to do. If leadership is not doing that, what are they building? It would seem a place were we gather more and more people and forget that Christ's commision is Mathew 28:19,20


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2005/1/29 14:54Profile





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