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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Saint or sinner

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Joined: 2010/9/19
Posts: 134


I don't know what other readers make of this kind of statement, but I hope some of them will respond, so it doesn't look like I'm the only person who feels you are tangling up so many ideas in short sentences, that what you write looks like you're trying to bounce a new religion into existence, off the platform of biblical and historic Christianity.

'as in the end of a race' just doesn't makes sense. There is a race, but it's not directly about the law which Jesus fulfilled, of which Paul says 'For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.'

Clearly, if CHRIST is our righteousness, the law has been superseded. This is the message across the whole epistle to the Hebrews.

Your other statement I wish to reject at face value, because you said nothing which implies you understand its implications, is

Had Jesus not fulfilled the Law He would have never become the Christ.

What this sentence says is, that you don't believe 'Jesus' was 'the Christ', from His birth.

That may not be what you intended to say, but please think very carefully about the reason angels announced His birth to shepherds, and a new star appeared in the sky to lead wise men to Him, and, why Herod was willing to order a massacre of toddlers, before defending that sentence in its entirety.

AtG....... you are worthy of rebuke!

Have you ever thought of doing some research before you post?

Try looking up the definition for the word "end"

To help you here is the Strong # you need to use "5056"

It is not me you are arguing with but with Jesus and God's Holy Word.......

Once again I use caps for your benefit

Matt 5 17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, BUT TO FULFIL.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 WHOSOEVER THEREFORE SHALL BREAK ONE OF THESE LEAST COMMANDMENTS, AND SHALL TEACH MEN SO, HE SHALL BE CALLED THE LEAST IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 2011/1/9 6:51Profile


Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, BUT TO FULFIL.

Perhaps if we took the time to discover HOW Jesus fulfilled the law so that we discover how the law applies to us today.

Please when anyone is answering keep in mind that Jesus was born under the law at the time that He spoke those words, therefore, everything that was spoken under the law were subjected to shadows and types up until the crucifixion.

 2011/1/9 8:57

 Re: Saint or sinner

Hi Doug,

I think we have a misunderstanding.

I have not disputed what JESUS said, but what you said. I have no argument with our Lord, but with your attempt effectively to alter the meaning of what Paul wrote in Romans 10:4, when you began your answer to my question with the following two sentences.

'Christ is the "end" of the law as in the end of a race.... Had Jesus not fulfilled the Law He would have never become the Christ.'

There are two places 'race' is mentioned (as in running). In neither, is there an implication that 'the law' is relevant, apart from those laws which GOD has in mind in His New Covenant promises.

You have not anywhere indicated that the New Covenant promises are what you have in mind, especially since now you have quoted the verse containing 'jot and tittle', which clearly refers to the Old Covenant law written in scrolls. Please bear in mind that I accept what Paul says about that law wherever he mentions it. My question is - do you?

Returning to the matter of racing, I accept that Christ is the prize - Phil 3:14, the Author and Finisher of our faith - Hebrews 12:2, but I have no idea how these relate to Paul's statement in Romans 10:4. Is it possible for you to show how you see the first two verses linked to the third?

Lastly, your second sentence above is plainly alarming. You don't allude to my first reply, in yours, which may have been an oversight. I would appreciate your thoughts when you are ready.

I simply want to state again that Jesus was BORN 'the Christ'.

That's what the Bible teaches, and to teach anything else is extra-biblical, and should be avoided.

There are monumental differences between the journey of Jesus' life, and the journey of a Christian, which in no way justify the suggestion that He was NOT born 'the Christ'.

This may not have been quite what you meant to say, or, what you meant by what you said, but what you said is not true.

 2011/1/9 9:40

Joined: 2007/11/16
Posts: 88


A simple question turned into a discussion. We need to watch our hearts brothers and stand next to each other. I don't have the answers to my question as I would have like it seen but I got a few answers from people and I will study the rest myself. God bless.


 2011/1/9 9:41Profile

 Re: Saint or sinner

Are believers in Christ a saint and sinner or a saint who is sometimes sinning or...? What's our identity? Because the old men died, new creation is there. So it's not I but sin in me. How do you guys look at this?

Hi Dirk, God Bless you brother.

Your question is quite simple, our identity is Christ, hence the name, Christian. These verses should help in identifying ourselves in Him.

John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Saul was persecuting the Church Jesus said to Saul, why persecutest thou me? Acts 9:4. When anyone hurts a believer, Jesus feels it because we are ONE in Him, as one body. While we are in Christ, we are just as much Jesus Christ as Christ is Christ, save that He is the head. As the head, He is also the body as much as we are His body. We have a head, our arms and legs are just as much apart of us as the head.

Our association is with Christ through His death, by His burial and by His resurrection. When He died, we died, when He was buried, we were buried and when He arose, we arose with Him as ONE NEW MAN so making peace. ".... as he is, so are we in this world. 1 John 4:17

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

1 John 3:2 Beloved, NOW are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. [as if looking in a mirror]

1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband IS sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife IS sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but NOW are they holy.

Acts 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy SAINTS at Jerusalem:

Acts 9:32 And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the SAINTS which dwelt at Lydda.

Acts 26:10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the SAINTS did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.

Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the SAINTS according to the will of God.

Romans 12:13 Distributing to the necessity of SAINTS; given to hospitality.

Romans 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the SAINTS.

I could go on and on, but you get the picture. Paul doesn't call any Christian a sinner, but they are referred to as Saints, which means they have been Sanctified.

Now, if we believe that we died with Christ and rose again in NEWNESS OF LIFE, we can rest assured that we have also been sanctified.

 2011/1/9 10:10

 Missing the Mark.

Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect:
but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Php 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

"Perfect" here means to live up to The Light that you have received thus far. There 'is' a growth process - but we are obligated to live up to what we already know. That's just called obedience.

The problem in the Church is that we see "sin" as these tangible things - or a list of things that we shouldn't be doing.

"Sin" is defined as "missing the mark" and what is this "mark" that Paul says that he is Striving for - running this race for - etc. -- it is the "Image of Christ" ... which is so very very much more than just conquering a list of "do's and don'ts". This is what he is striving for in the above verses.

Where is the battle fought, but first in and with the mind -

2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, AND BRINGING INTO CAPTIVITY "EVERY" THOUGHT TO THE OBEDIENCE OF CHRIST.

"EVERY THOUGHT". This could be called "Christian-Mindfulness". Pay attention to your own thoughts and where they go. Not being passive or allow our minds to go wherever and just excuse that as day dreaming or not thinking. This again is where the moment by moment choices are made and set.

I don't believe GOD takes the excuse of an "unconscious" or "subconscience" neither. There's nothing in His WORD that would substantiate that - only where David prayed that GOD would SHOW him if he had anything that he wasn't aware of - that GOD would show him even that. GOD is faithful to use others and circumstances "all things working toward that good" to show us even those things that we, for some reason, are ignorant of. That can hurt, as can also chastisement and pruning.

We were sanctified (set apart) AT salvation - And Be-ing Sanctified, until we see Him Face to face.

Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling For it is GOD which worketh in you. "Both/And" - working with or walking in His Spirit = dependent obedience.

'Sin' is missing the mark of The Image of Christ. If that's the definition, we are all by our own freewills either Be-ing Sanctified (a continuous action) or grieving The Spirit by not having this mind like Paul speaks of.

1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I buffet my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

 2011/1/9 10:53

Joined: 2010/9/19
Posts: 134

 Re: Missing the Mark.

The race to be won is the resurrection of Christ in us......... that is the crown of righteousness Paul had waiting for Him for running the race that he did

There is no second place and either you hit the mark and Christ is formed in you that is the high calling of our profession or you miss the mark and Christ is not formed in you



 2011/1/9 11:51Profile

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710


Why is keeping or not keeping the Law such a fight between brothers and sisters, when we know the Law will not save us or give us any free ticket into the Kingdom of God?

"Ye must be born again".

The is only one punched ticket that when presented to God will allow us to enter His Kingdom. Jesus Christ is the Only One God the Father sees in the believer, He is no respecter of persons in our humaness, He only validates sons' by the Only Begotten first born Son that He rebirthed in the believer when we acquire the knowledge of; "Jesus Christ is the Son of God", Amen.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Either He is my perfection or I am my own perfection by what I accomplish for Him to get me in good standing with God the Father so I can say I ran the race, I kept the commandments, I love God, I, I, I, I..

Is it "His working which workfare in me mightily", or is it mine. This is my labor and striving, according to His working. This is my race, by His working, this is my Life by His Live, this is my all and all, Christ Jesus who lives in me, "It is no longer I who Live But, "Christ who lives in me."

I work and I strive because of His working in me. He is the only One that has my life in His hands, He has my ticket and it is soaked with His Blood, so when I show it to the Father, He will say, Come in my son.

In Christ: Phillip


 2011/1/9 12:33Profile


Why is keeping or not keeping the Law such a fight between brothers and sisters,

It's what Paul was contending for in the early century. The men that were creeping in unawares were those who were desirous to bring the Church into condemnation by teaching them that we must keep the law. It's a fight to the bitter end to keep this gospel free from the works of the law.

That was their battle back in the day and it still is.

 2011/1/9 12:45

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710



Even Abraham could do nothing until God began His work in Him.

In Christ: Phillip


 2011/1/9 12:47Profile

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