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 John The Baptist Fire of God Part 2 by L Ravenhill :The same as the Toronto Blessing or not?

Hi,I listened to this sermon by Leonard Ravenhill and hope some of you can answer some questions
1.Back in the 90s I attended a toronto meeting and this seems just same.What do you think?I noticed that it was at a vineyard conference and when I googled it appeared to be linked to John Wimber.
2.Is Pentecost the only acceptable outpouring of the Holy Spirit?Acceptable may not be the right phrase.
3.I have heard a lot of sermons on santification and repentance.What makes this one different?
I hope someone will be able to shed some light on this Sermon,thanks Staff

 2010/11/16 6:03Profile
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 Re: John The Baptist Fire of God Part 2 by L Ravenhill :The same as the Toronto Bless

The sermon by Ravenhill--what you heard was crying. People were crying tears of repentance. Its not uncommon for people when they are born again or when the Holy Spirit comes to them (both saved and unsaved) to convict them of their sins and to give their lives to Jesus, for there to be tears. This is not limited to Pentecost. In the bible, you will see tears--Jesus's tears, Peter's tears when the cock crowed twice after his denial of Jesus etc.

I'm not sure of the toronto meeting as I've not seen it. I heard its false from people I trust to have discernment in this matter.Usually in false 'revival/meetings', you will get the false spirits invading and that's when you have all these weird manifestations such as slain in the spirit, clucking like a chicken, shaking uncontrollably, running uncontrollably, laughing uncontrollably etc.


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geraldine

 2010/11/16 7:10Profile
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 Re:

Ravenhilll was preaching at a "holiness" week conference that the vineyard church put on for Ravenhill to speak at with his son David Ravenhill.

The only unfortunate part is some of the so called "prophets" who were directing ravenhill in what to do.

Ravenhill didn't care what setting he was in as long as he could preach the word of God uncomprimisingly to the audience. He did keep wimber and others close to him because he was desiring a work of God's Spirit in his day.

As the other poster said, the people are weeping and crying out to God in conviction of sin, which is the right manifestation of the spirit of God who come to convict the world of sin, righteousness and jugement to come!


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 2010/11/16 7:52Profile
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I take on board your points regarding Ravenhill preaching the word of God in the vineyard setting.You could look at that both ways though.By preaching there he was giving them credibility.However after saying that if Jesus was asked to preach there he wouldnt have refused but John The Baptist would have refused.
After thinking about this all day,I have a couple of observations,the people attending the conference for the most part were probably the same people who attended false vineyard meetings in the previous weeks and months under the other leaders and what were the meetings like the week after?Did it really bring about a change.
I agree crying and weeping can signal conviction of sin but couldnt it be just another false manifistation as well.After all we are not dealing with dumb animals but intelligent beings.
On listening more closely I hear people screaming and roaring also.One arguement at the time of Toronto was that the noises etc hindered the speakers sermon and this to my ears this happened here.
Did the people repent earlier in the conference about the false manifestations linked closely to the vineyard?
Jesus would have repremanded them lovelingly if he were preaching at the meeting and John would have said bring forth fruits in line with repentance.

Mat 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.


Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?


Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

I remain unconvinced by your comments but I thank you for making me think more closely about the subject.I think Leonard Ravenhill was a great preacher and I hope I dont do him an injustice but I think he may have got it wrong this time.However I hope it is me that is wrong and that their was genuine repentance at vineyard in 1990 and the church did chance after that conference,
Thank you for your welcome comments,Staff

 2010/11/16 18:33Profile
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Brother,

on review of my comments they come across strong and harsh. I really think it is good you picked up on this from this recording. I do sense the error and problems with the vineyard movement and in this recording it is quite obvious. but ravenhill's preaching is still the same and God used him powerfully even in that enviroment.

Again it is good this was raised for discussion.


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 2010/11/16 18:42Profile
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I guess the reason I raised the issue is that at the time I went to a meeting similar to vineyard it left me very confused.I want to see healings,miracles, and genuine repentance.Either way Leonard Ravenhill deserves his place as a great Preacher and servant of God.
John The Baptist was successful not because he preached Repentance but that he first Preached Judgement.John taught that Jesus was coming to Judge the world as well as save the world but he was coming to do the later only at that time.We preach Judgement differently today in the sense that we tell people where they are going if they dont repent,John preached this way

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:


Mat 3:12 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

He left people thinking that they were about to be literally burned up!No wonder they were going to see him in numbers and getting baptised.
I think we cannot preach like this again until the Lord is about to come back.Hence I believe in an end time revival.
Thank you again and thank God for Leonard Ravenhill.

 2010/11/16 19:13Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
I agree crying and weeping can signal conviction of sin but couldnt it be just another false manifistation as well.After all we are not dealing with dumb animals but intelligent beings.



It can be wild emotionalism, or a sincere conviction or a mixer of spiritual and carnal emotion, God knows.Its because of the lack of spiritual discernment that we dont often locate the source of affections or emotions.And whats more importing is whether or not there is a lasting fruit coming out of that emotional experience and decision. Jonathan Edwards wrote a book on religious affections, i have not read all of it but im sure its one of the best books on spiritual discernment.

I want to listen to this sermon when i get a headset. Ravenhill was really a voice from God as far as calling the church to genuine repentance, faith and holiness of heart and life. After i was saved i cant describe how much blessed i was by reading Why Revival Taries, it made me hunger and thirst more for God.


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 2010/11/16 19:33Profile
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Hi,I think its fair to say that Leonard Ravenhill preached the sermon to call the people to genuine repentance.Staff

 2010/11/16 19:41Profile
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Ok, this got me worried some because I actually cried way before they cried in this sermon--in fact in the early first few minutes it started (and continued throughout) and mine wasn't emotional. And no, I did not listen to any of the other sermons beforehand. I just listened to this part 2 because I was interested in the crying but forgot that there was crying (which I take it to be the presence of the Holy Spirit) until halfway through my tears and I remembered and so turned the volume up to hear the crying. My audio is not great--so the crying is not easily distinguishable and can be like static over my headset.


Thus, can someone help me with the below questions.

1) I would like to know whether there were any problems during this sermon at all and if so what the problems are (other than that Ravenhill could not continue on with his sermon. But Ravenhill actually said that God would be in the presence today or something like that at 3am that morning and that the crying sounds were music to God's ears).


2) I know that Ravenhill was not able to continue preaching because the people started crying and some people started saying out loud--I think from what the speaker say--"what must we do" and maybe a few other words which I couldn't make out what it was--which I did find distracting. Another thing, there was the sound (but no words) which is made at certain types of crying. Its like 'herrrrrhhh' or something like that. I too have sometimes made this sound while crying (although most of the time my crying is silent). In fact, sometimes when I am praying and tears start coming, I make this sound too and thus unable to say anything in prayer. I take it that this could possibly be 'groaning in the spirit' where the spirit is interceding on behalf of me to God???--any idea????--I've gotten more of this sound lately.

Pls, if there's something wrong with this sermon I would like to know because this is 1 sermon which I had the heaviest crying and brought me to pray. In fact, if the sermon was to be conducted in Greek, I will still cry. So yes, I am rather adamant in wanting to know the answer. I do not want to be misled. I know Ravenhill is a true preacher but I also want to know (after the earlier posts here) that it was God's presence during the sermon and not a false presence there because of what happened to me.

Edit : the screaming and roaring as staff had put is the words that I mentioned that was uttered by a few of them
and I did find it distracting. But I think there was very little of that and it was only about 2-3 people only (a lady and a man) and they did not say it too many times, also this was not the reason why the sermon could not continue. It was because the people there started crying????--I'm trying to recall.
Thanks.


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 2010/11/16 20:00Profile
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 Re:

I listened to this as well. I thought Leonard seemed rather shocked that it was happening, although he adds something to the effect that God told him it was going to..


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 2010/11/16 20:10Profile





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