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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Why True Protestants REJECT the pope!

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Joined: 2008/7/24
Posts: 613


[by Alive-to-God on 2010/11/15 11:56:57
I hear what you're saying. One could speculate many possible reasons that a person would keep quiet and stay put, but I'm unwilling to conclude that we can assume they are not right with God. Only time, and the Judge of all, can make that call. Most people would eventually find it as intolerant as the man in the example you gave.]

For me, the longer they stay in the Catholic church, the more likely they may not be saved. However, whether they are truly saved or not, I cannot say for sure.

But there's 1 thing that will sway me more towards believing them not being saved (although of course this is never 100% certain) and that is if they say and believe this :

"I'm saved because I believe in Jesus as my saviour. However, people from other religions eg: Buddhist etc can be saved too. They don't need to believe that Jesus is the way for them. However, for me, I believe Jesus is the way for me.


I believe in Jesus and that's why I'm saved. However, I do not try to convert people from other religions. If they are Hindus, I encourage them to be better Hindus, if they are Buddhists, I encourage them to be better Buddhists etc."

Why do I say that. Because for me this faith seems to be their own faith and not saving faith ie faith that comes from God. The bible is very clear that Jesus is the only way and that every knee shall bow to him. I cannot imagine a saved person (unless he's extremely new to the faith or at the point in time very distant from God due to too much sin) to say this, because where is God's glory in this, what's the point of preaching the gospel and when will God allow this type of saying to pass from the lips of a saved person that has walked with Him for years.(God will work in a saved person's life to yearn for Him, the bible, to follow His commands etc--so he will not be 'naive/ignorant' to say those words in the earlier paragraph).

Also, my previous pastor mentioned that Paul was persecuted because he said there was only 1 God (1 way to Heaven). If he were to acknowledge the other Gods and Jesus just being 1 of the God, then he wouldn't have been persecuted in 1 of his journey/teaching (in Rome I believe where there were many Gods)

Miracles abound in all sorts of religion--Catholic, Christian, Hindu etc. There are unsaved people that are more pious and produce more good works than those that are genuinely saved (eg: Gandhi).

If we base whether a person is saved on just the 'fruit of the spirit' /good works and/or miracles, then we can get deceived easily. That's why we have to rely on the bible. The bible mentioned that people would be deceived by miracles etc. So to prevent ourselves not to be deceived, we need to know what the bible teaches. That's 1 reason why the bible is so important.

When we are willing to put the bible 1st and foremost instead of how respected and self-sacrificing the person is (from whatever faith--be it Catholic, Christian, Hindu etc), that is when we will be better able to discern. That is when God will give you the understanding so much faster and you will know that it is not an intellectual understanding, but one that is from God.

Edit to add: I also believe that for those that are persecuted badly (eg: the persecuted church worldwide), even when they don't have the complete bible, you will find something very common among them all. The urgency and love to preach the Gospel--to bring people to Christ. And that's why I say those that believe other religions are saved or don't try to convert are either false believers or if they are true believers (they are just too new to the faith and not persecuted AND/OR too much sins currently whilch ultimately they have to repent).

I will also say that when Catholics and Christians are undergoing severe persecution (eg: in jails and being tortured), these Catholics that still hold to the faith are more likely saved and not false believers if when they are in prison and tortured greatly , these Catholics when they preach in prison, they will be preaching about Jesus and not about allegiance to the church, Mary etc. When they talk about sufferings, they talk about Jesus's sufferings and not Mary's sufferings, when they talk about being comforted, they talked about being comforted by God and not by praying to Mary and so the list goes. That's 1 very telling way of knowing whether a person is really saved in this instance.


 2010/11/15 17:25Profile

 Re: Why True Protestants REJECT the pope!

Hi Homeskooldad,

(EDIT: I've moved my reply to learn, to the next post.)

I'm not sure if we have a misunderstanding. I'm not sure to whose post I originally responded, but learn quoted mine in reply, and so I replied to learn.

You said

Let's be clear on something... what I said was if they are trusting in the teachings of the Catholic Church for salvation... they are as lost as a person can be. They are not saved by how sincerely they believe in Catholic doctrine, or by how much they love the god of the Catholic Church... or by how devout they are.

They are only saved by grace alone, through faith alone... in Jesus Christ alone. If they are truly saved by grace alone, through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone then the Catholic Church says that they are condemmned to hell (anathema). The Catholic Church's words, not mine. I'm just quoting.

Please, I'm not trying to be argumentative here, so could you try and listen to what I 'am' saying? First, I don't disagree with your quote above. I am not talking about people who are totally in agreement with the doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, but who really have come to the know the Lord, by whatever means He chose to reveal Himself to them.

Second, 'so what' if the Catholic church calls salvation (yours, mine, a priest's) 'anathema'? What are any of us to do about it? Yes, if we became saved in the Roman Catholic Church, God is calling us out IN OUR HEARTS, primarily. What that looks like in practice, though, may vary from person to person, for many reasons which GOD allows. What's important is that WHEN a person KNOWS they should leave - because they understand this is what the Holy Spirit is speaking in them - THEY LEAVE. Perhaps we can agree on that point?

Further, I feel there is biblical precedent for circumspection at times.

John 7:13 Howbeit no man spake openly of him for fear of the Jews.

John 19:38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave [him] leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus. 39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night...'

John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.

While Jesus is standing in the midst of the fearful situation, there is a) nothing to fear, and b) no need to move.

I'm not saying 'this is the only way', but only that it's all very well to think if YOU were the one contemplating the choice to rip your entire community apart by leaving the priesthood very publicly, you might hesitate until you were entirely certain this is how God wants you to do it.

For instance, you might start sharing the gospel privately, with as many of your parishoners as possible, before giving any hint that you can't carry on in with your public role - or until someone makes it public to the authorities, and pressure is brought to bear on you to make a public or private choice.

How much of your reptutation would you be prepared to see go down the drain, for the name of Jesus Christ?

 2010/11/15 17:32

Joined: 2008/7/24
Posts: 613


[by Alive-to-God on 2010/11/15 14:32:19
hello learn, I think you posted while I was replying. I'm reading your post now. If I think there is something to add, I'll edit this post again. end edit.]

Hi Alive to God,
Sorry but I edited it to add more things. You may have to read it again before posting your reply. Thanks.


 2010/11/15 17:49Profile

 Re: Why True Protestants REJECT the pope!

Hi learn. Okay. I'm going back! I'm reading your post now...

Really, my idea of salvation is the same as yours, and my reference to a priest being saved would be on exactly the same terms as you and I are, by biblical parameters. This is what I've had in mind all along.

Your mention of miracles sparks a thought in me which is new - not designed to take this thread off track; it's this: was Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give', REPLACED by Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen'?

I ask because I do believe in the miracles of Jesus, and without doubt in some parts of the world He is still doing them through His body on earth. They are important to some people, just as signs were important to the Jews, and Jesus expected those who saw HIS miracles, to respond by glorifying God and repenting. I'm reluctant to say they're a thing of the past - or ought to be - and I don't think we can abandon such manifestations of God's power on earth today, purely because His adversary has convincing counterfeits.

When they talk about sufferings, they talk about Jesus's sufferings

The stations of the cross, cannot but remind a Roman Catholic of Christ's sufferings. But, if that person doesn't understand these are the ONLY sufferings necessary for our salvation, then even if they don't mention Mary, they may well promote the necessity of other obeissances from within Roman Catholic doctrine - which we have already agreed, are not biblical.

PS - I do realise that a great deal of bondage exists under Roman Catholic doctrine. There is bondage in the world. There is bondage in 'protestant' church doctrines, too, but, IF the Son therefore shall MAKE you free, ye shall be free indeed - John 8:36.

 2010/11/15 17:54


One could speculate many possible reasons that a person would keep quiet and stay put

Is there a better place to attend to obtain good preaching? I find it hard as it is to get anything out of our Pentecostal Baptist churches today, truth wise. So really, I personally I think they should stay right where they are and be a light amongst darkness.

 2010/11/15 19:52


Is that why people gather together? To hear good preaching?

Maybe you are right.

I just wonder if that is why they gathered together in the early church and why they gather together in underground churches around the world.

 2010/11/15 20:24


Snuf... doesn't matter what you "think"... it only matters what scripture says. Paul said to mark and AVOID those who teach falsely. You can not find one piece of scripture to support what you're saying.

 2010/11/15 21:11


I believe in Jesus and that's why I'm saved. However, I do not try to convert people from other religions. If they are Hindus, I encourage them to be better Hindus, if they are Buddhists, I encourage them to be better Buddhists etc."

Mother Teressa right? Truly one of the saddest statement's I've ever heard. It really makes me uncomfortable when Christians quote her life or statements and try to paint her as a woman of faith, when statements as vile as these were the core of her "belief" in God.

It honestly shouldn't be too difficult an issue. You can break it down rather simply.

Does the Blood of Christ atone for all sins, or do you atone in purgatory for your own?

Is salvation by faith alone, or is it by the sacraments?

Is Jesus Christ seated in heaven in a resurrected body, or is He a cracker that you eat (literally) at mass?

Can a person be saved and be a Catholic? Of course.
Can a person be saved and remain a Catholic? Not a chance.

True worshipers worship in spirit AND in truth. We must love Catholics to death. But because of this love we must hate the Catholic church that's poisoning them.

 2010/11/15 21:23


I have actually had people get upset with me when I state that Mother Teresa showed no signs of ever believing the truth of the gospel message. To the end she expressed faith in the sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church. She proved this when she expressed doubt at the end of her life of whether she had been good enough to get into heaven.

And Christians get mad at me when I say that. Why? Because even people who claim to believe the truth of the gospel look at her and think "look at all the good works she did! She is one of the best people who ever lived! Surely God will not send her to hell!" (and by the way... God does in fact send sinners to hell. There is a lie in evangelicalism that God does not send people to hell, people choose to go to hell. That is unscriptural. If hell is "punishment", then God punishes unregenerate sinners by sending them to hell.)

But guess what, as good a person as Mother Teresa was, if she never believed the truth of the gospel and was never saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone... she did all that good work in vain, and right this very moment she is in hell. Period.

And I take no pleasure in making that statement, but it's the truth. Anything else would be a lie.

 2010/11/16 5:53

Joined: 2008/7/24
Posts: 613


I'm sensing that this thread may potentially degenerate into one of self-righteousness on Christians getting it right and Catholics being wrong or unless you have done as much good as this person, you have no right to judge him etc. I guess I may have opened a can of worms by paraphrasing a saying of M. Theresa but that is what I believe in and was hoping that people will realize that you really have to follow the bible or face the possibility of being misled (yes--EverestoSama--you guessed right that it was her). The thread has not become this yet and I hope that it will not be.

Instead I hope that this thread will become one where we can see how we can persuade the Catholics to come out of the Roman Catholic Church and rely solely on Jesus being their saviour and Lord.

There is a verse which I cannot recall now but it talks about telling him gently so that he repents from his sins. And that is the verse that we should keep in mind when we are talking to Catholics. Perhaps somebody will be able to say the verse.

Also keep in mind,
Matthew 10:16
....Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves

Post edited


 2010/11/16 8:33Profile

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