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lwpray
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Joined: 2003/6/22
Posts: 3318
Sweden

 To gather a fuller...



To gather a fuller and truer perspective on Mr. Joyner’s involvement in occult lore,
mail us a request for the article “Covenants and Chivalry” by Lars Widerberg.
[email protected]


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Lars Widerberg

 2004/11/6 12:10Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re: Ministry of confrontation

Quote:

lwpray wrote:
A ministry of confrontation and correction is an absolute necessity.
Interaction unto repentance goes on at certain levels, in certain settings.
This is a burden which few are able to carry. Take a look at my article “A Burden, the unwelcome necessity.”

This work must go on and on as the deception goes on and on.
A prophet, viewed by “Them”, cannot be corrected – a stance which makes it very difficult to reach happy endings.



I'm not sure of your sources, regarding the claim that "they" belive they are exempt from correction.

Quote:

Rick Joyner wrote:
Please also understand that if Paul had been a true member of a local church, under the true authority of a pastor, we would have simply taken it there. However, with Paul this was not the case. As Mike, Jack, and I have talked about considerably, one of our biggest failures in this matter was to think that because Paul had such special gifts he deserved special treatment and did not need to be incorporated into the life of the local church like others. I have little doubt that if Paul had been required to comply with the disciplines of a normal Christian life, which without question includes a true church life, these strongholds would have been exposed long ago.


Mike Bickle was Paul Cain's pastor at one point. In his book "Growing in the Prophetic", he lays out a clear structure that they had set up, to ensure prophetic integrity, where every "prophetic word" delivered would be recorded, so as to allow accountability, should something "off" be spoken. Every prophecy was to be "judged by the prophets".

Understanding the falacy of the existance of a "prophetic movement", Bickle dedicates an appendix to this book to running "Drinking Meetings" (refering to "holy laughter"). While he accepts this phenonema, Joyner rejects it.

The "prophetic movement" is about people relating on a common ground, as we relate on a common ground.


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Aaron Ireland

 2004/11/6 12:14Profile
lwpray
Member



Joined: 2003/6/22
Posts: 3318
Sweden

 Re:



The number of sources in this field are beyond possibilities of counting after 20 years of work in direct relation to many of these ministies.
L.W.


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Lars Widerberg

 2004/11/6 12:29Profile
Gideons
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Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 474
Virginia

 Re: Brother Aaron

Brother Aaron,

I saw your prior message, where you said "Let the stoning begin." I don't believe anyone here on SI would do such a thing, regardless of whether they agree with you or not.

I'm not going to judge the heart of any man but we can test what they say against God's word. That's the only litmus test I use.

The prophets of old focused so much on repentance. That's where my present focus is and for whatever reason I fail to see this message articulated by most of the modern day prophets. Where's the brokenness over sin? Where's the crying out for repentance? Repentance has to be done for specific sins and the prophets used to describe those sins in great detail. We try to get by with a general repentance and that's not really repentance at all.

Thank God for the prophets who will preach the message of repentance. They will be unpopular and persecuted by the modern church, but they will speak the Word of God with power and authority.

That's what deeply concerns me about the prophetic movement in this country. I'm sorry Brother Aaron, I diverted off the topic a bit here but we all see through the glass darkly.


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Ed Pugh

 2004/11/6 12:34Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
The prophetic movement is bored to death with Jesus and the normal Christian life.



It seems like this is true on the surface; but I think the problem is a little deeper than this. I have had only limited contact with these people, but just this year I was in two services to hear Art Katz at IHOP (International House of Prayer). Before he spoke there was a continuous time of worship that I must be careful to characterize. I don't believe that it is so much that they are 'bored' with Jesus; but that they are in love with the idea of Jesus and not the reality of Jesus. They are locked up in the Song of Solomon thing that sees Christ chasing His bride over the hillside or something. It reminds me much of the hippy movement and the 'love' and 'peace' - "Jesus loves me, loves you, loves everybody thing." They seem to be way out of balance on the love of Christ. They dwell in the goodness and love and not in the severity. An emphasis on love is a good thing if it is balanced with holiness and righteousness; but when they are out of balance it is difficult to preach a thunderous message of repentance to them because they don't even perceive God in that light. It is a side of God they never knew. Its almost like they were 'too sensitive' to take a spanking they desperately need. The word 'love' must be biblically defined and fast. This is the next step I belive in seeing the Church come into revival.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/11/6 12:38Profile
revival9
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Joined: 2004/6/6
Posts: 140
Arizona, USA

 Re:

We who live in free, affluent countries are missing vital ingredients of the Gospel. I am convinced: [u]Much of scripture cannot be understood unless one’s life is at stake.[/u] We have too much time on our hands. We can sit in our comfortable homes, conference centers, church offices, upscale retreats, healing rooms, prayer towers, or whatever we decide to build, and never understand Our Lord and His message. We can spend days and months and years talking and writing and debating whatever we want about anything we want. And be as far away from authentic Christianity as the most deranged pagan.

Those who spend their days determining different levels of demonic activity, angelic activity, anointing activity, prophetic activity, Old Testament links to current events, end time theology, whatever the current fad is… what a pathetic use of time, energy and money. We’re all being duped big-time. It IS our fault. We’re stupid, blind, fat, rich westerners who don’t have a CLUE. I’m right in there with all of us and it horrifies me!

The western church is so stuck on itself, so caught up in fables and fortunes, I have lost all respect for it. Look closely at the church in other countries, where it COSTS SOMETHING to be a Christian. They don’t have problems discerning principalities and powers --- they have THE power. They don’t waste time writing books --- they have THE book. They could care less about prophetic offices, prophetic mumbo-jumbo, prophetic prayer breakfasts, prophetic conferences and prophetic pronouncements from rich prophetic super-stars. They have REAL prophets who have nothing…. except scars from their beatings and tortures. REAL prophets who have nothing… except broken bodies from years of imprisonment, starvation, and forced labor. REAL prophets who have nothing… because all of their loved ones, all of their possessions, everything they own or love on this earth, has been taken from them, many times over… because they would not let go of JESUS or deny His Holy Name.

THOSE are the prophets I will listen to.

Mrs. Fred


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Mrs. Fred

 2004/11/6 13:23Profile
todd
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Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re: Basic questions response 2

Lars,

Quote:
"Nothing changed as to how God relates to humanity by the coming of Christ, the Cross and the resurrection."

Hmmmm... the veil torn in two? Hebrews 10, especially verses 19-22? The [b]new[/b] and living way [i]inaugurated[/i] for us through Jesus' flesh... we now have confidence to enter the holy place by His blood... to draw near like never before? Ephesians 2:8-22? Fulfillment of the Law? Jesus, the mediator of a [b]new[/b] covenant?

Those are just some inital thoughts. I feel like I could go on and on. And you didn't even mention Pentecost. How can you say that nothing changed? It seems nearly everything changed.

Quote:
"The prophet, as an individual or in a fellowship, still deals with sin and redemption."

Yeah, I guess all Christians play a part in dealing with those things amongst each other.
1 Cor. 14:3 is more of what I would expect, in general, from a person who would be described as prophetic today.

Quote:
"Why, then, are these practices and many more hailed as proper behaviour in conferences and churches?

Perhaps in some "churches" this is the case. Obviously I can't say for sure. But I don't believe the folks in question in this thread are suspect concerning these issues you bring up.


Quote:
"Why has the prophetic interpretation of God’s standards gone off tangent?"

I don't think they have across the board. Sure there might be some here and there that miss it occasionally. I don't know. I am not very interested in dealing with what might be occuring hypathetically. I am primarily concerned, at the moment, with dealing with the material from the Strom article. I think it will be most fruitful to stay focused on that.

Quote:
"The Berean mindset was hailed for its integrity and willingness to search the scriptures."

I think what was at least equally (if not more) important was their [i]great[/i] eagerness to find out if these exciting things were for real. They were very "open-minded."

If there's no clear scriptural contradiction, then it might be God.

Quote:
"Drunkenness is lifted up as the trendy expression of spirituality... A full measure of Christ manifesting in mild and caring expressions towards the oppressed and needy is reversed into a robbing the widow and crushing the one already beaten and downtrodden. And we could go on. . ."

Perhaps you should try and take up this argument with some folks right in the midst of what you might term "the prophetic movement"... Rolland and Heidi Baker- who gave up everything to go live in the poorest place in the world and shine with the light and love of Christ. They've actually come to the West to help us, they didn't really want to but they realized that we are poor too, in different ways (mostly spiritually I think). And I could go on...

Then again, what's mild about plundering hell? Healing the sick, casting out devils, raising people from the dead, signs, wonders, and miracles, etc.?

I'm all for mercy ministries who give to the poor relationally and materially (mild ways), but I'm even more excited about truly compassionate and powerful ministries that set them free from oppression and defeat.

 2004/11/6 13:29Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Look closely at the church in other countries, where it COSTS SOMETHING to be a Christian. They don’t have problems discerning principalities and powers --- they have THE power. They don’t waste time writing books --- they have THE book. They could care less about prophetic offices, prophetic mumbo-jumbo, prophetic prayer breakfasts, prophetic conferences and prophetic pronouncements from rich prophetic super-stars. They have REAL prophets who have nothing…. except scars from their beatings and tortures. REAL prophets who have nothing… except broken bodies from years of imprisonment, starvation, and forced labor. REAL prophets who have nothing… because all of their loved ones, all of their possessions, everything they own or love on this earth, has been taken from them, many times over… because they would not let go of JESUS or deny His Holy Name.



I have a book called Tortured for Christ by Richard Wurmbrand. In that book there is a chapter I shall never forget. I seem to recall it was called, "We Preached and they Beat." It happens that during his imprisonment he and a few other Christian prisoners in the Communist prison made a deal with the guards. The suffering for preaching Jesus was so vile I will not write it here. On one occasion a man was drug out of the cell in the middle of his sermon and taken and beaten within an inch of his life. When the guards were through they threw him back in the cell. He took a moment and gathered himself and in a moment declared, "Now where was I?". The deal was, "WE PREACHED AND THEY BEAT"- Wurmbrand stated, "We were happy preaching, they were happy beating us, and we were all happy!" Where are prophets like that in our day? Where are the George Foxes'? All the prophets were persecuted in some way. How is it that a person could apply to themselves the office of a prophet? Let their persecutions declare their office.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/11/6 14:10Profile
Spitfire
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Joined: 2004/8/3
Posts: 633


 Re:

Quote:
The word 'love' must be biblically defined and fast. This is the next step I belive in seeing the Church come into revival.


Amen, and Amen.
Quote:
They seem to be way out of balance on the love of Christ. They dwell in the goodness and love and not in the severity. An emphasis on love is a good thing if it is balanced with holiness and righteousness; but when they are out of balance it is difficult to preach a thunderous message of repentance to them because they don't even perceive God in that light. It is a side of God they never knew. Its almost like they were 'too sensitive' to take a spanking they desperately need.


Oh, this is so true. This has been true of me. I'm so glad God finally caught me by the hair and as we say in the South, tore my tail up! After I got through pouting, I began to humble myself. I pray that my life can become as Chanin so eloquently put it on another thread, a walking conviction. I don't know if you can really preach this apart from much prayer that God will open the eyes of the blind.

 2004/11/6 15:52Profile
moreofHim
Member



Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re:

Quote:
They seem to be way out of balance on the love of Christ. They dwell in the goodness and love and not in the severity. An emphasis on love is a good thing if it is balanced with holiness and righteousness;



In my own deliverance from 'Christian city', it was the 'fear of the Lord' which brought me to the foot of the cross. When the Lord blessed me with the knowledge of this fear- it developed into a mutual love. Yes, a 'song of solomon' kind of love but I still have the fear of the Lord to go along with it.

Robert, you're right there is a balance. Even from this NANC conference I attended last night, they stated that interestingly enough,in the bible [b]love for God and the fear of God are nearly synonomous. They form no contrast, but work in tandem.[/b]

The reason why I know this to be true is because of the people I know (personally) who are still part of the prophetic movement (though I love them)they do not get the whole "surrender" thing. They think that God will love them right where they are- and it dosn't cause them to want to change or give their all. Only part.

Actually as i think about it, this goes for the people I know who are in Baptists churches, Church of God, you name it. I guess what I am saying is- though, the prophetic community may claim to be "tight" with God (compared to say baptists or any other christian) there seems to be a lack of willingness to give up their own lives (and their rights, wills, money- whatever is asked of them) - a lack of obedience out of fear of offending a Holy God. There is not a lack of love here. We love Him enough to obey Him. He loves us to want what's best for us- absolute surrender is what's best. :-)

In Him, Chanin


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Chanin

 2004/11/6 17:15Profile





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