Immediately to learned christians and well read christians of the Bible the Op's title would resonate to them that the text is TAKEN FROM a verse in John chapter 10 and essentially speaking ... Jesus would not have uttered these words if it were not a great concern and a pressing issue of great importance. It should be noted by the readers today - that the (previous posting) on (authority) a short while ago was not to be construed or interpreted as promoting anything divisive or "anti-authoritarian" within the Church. Nor was it given to stir-up anything contentious (God forbid). My intent was sincere in kicking around the topic, as such. Thats what forum discussions do! we ask questions to arrrive at the truth and to find answers - and to hopefully get satisfactory outcomes. Because more and more as the Day of Christ approaches i am detecting that (we who are NOT Quote 5-fold or POSSESS a platform ministry ... are having next to little or no say on important issues. So Do we have a voice or not (fair and valid question)? Or Do we have to ascend to a higher order or position to be heard and regarded? Or will it get to a place you think where we will ultimately be brought before councils for having our say on the bible? and because effectively we are ...of those ... deemed not to have any authority, as such!

When and where: does the little guy or the small person and those who are the least in Christ have a say or have a voice? That was the reason for my using of the example of the man born blind ... he starting preaching and exhorting straightaway... the pharisees did not like this or approve. they in essence told him not to preach to them or to teach them. Shut up and be quiet - dont preach to us, and do not teach us about this Jesus man -and so he was cast out.

The purpose of the (quote) 5-fold ministry i thought was to equip us for ministry and to mature and enhance other saints into gifts and callings - and not to further make seperations between clergy and laity! Well i thougt so. But how silly of me though for thinking those things. Anyhow the writer of hebrews was not happy that some had not progressed to a level they themselves coud teach others. Scripture encourages us to be rich in utterance and in knowledge. Paul seemed happy and rejoiceful that the believers were able to admonish each other. Again the author of the book of hebrews says we ought to provoke one another - to love and to good works.

Now By all accounts Stephen in the book of acts did Not quote hold down a five fold office nor did he have or hold a platform ministry as such! ( yes he served tables in the ministration of the neglected widows) but technically spiritually speaking he was not an ordained preacher - yet he seems to be getting raked over the coals for his works and for the healings - by them of the synagogue and by certain others. But there is nothing new under the sun is there? why even Jesus the Son was raked over the coals by Jewish groups saying "who gave you this autority"? and by whose authority do you speak? Jesus standing before the high priest (also) was effectively examined at his trial being asked about his ministry doings? and that of his discipling? Jesus' response however was nothing short of amazing - inasmuch as he found contradiction with there reasonings and questions. He said " why ask me" ? Ask them that heard me! If you want to get to the bottom of something because you think something is UP ? then why would you ask the person you think is suspect? Thats a no brainer! In the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses let every word be established. But here is Jesus who is the begotten of God ... the only begotten mind you. But here he finds himself in hot water - with the authorities, as it doesnt get any higher than (the high priest) (at that time) at least - being examined about making disciples. They are basically saying Whats the deal with the making disciples thing?? Did we authorize it or give you permission to do this? Did the pharisees approve these doings? what about the saduccees - did they sanction your doings? But Because Jesus actually proceeded to answer the question he recieved a smack in the mouth! saying "dost thou answer the high priest this way" Jesus responsed to that accusation though finding fault - with them, saying: If i have spoken evil then bear witness to the evil, but if not why smittest me? Mind you Peter is watching all this from a safe distance as Jesus is being grilled and raked over the coals. It was pretty hot in that trial room -- dont you think? But we ought to obey God, rather than to obey man!

Again Jesus would not have issued warnings about hirelings if this were not a genuine concern and pressing issue! As a long time friend of mine who has been in the way for some 30 years now said and i quote "What is a pastor anyway" she often asks this question in all sincerity? Most of them seem to be tripping overseas and furthering there name and influence and empire! And If it is a role of oversight, then that seems to be delegated down to others who are (under them) from what She and "I" have observed. And If pastor does mean that of shepherding then how can this be? ... if one is never around long enough to know what the affairs of that particular church or assembly are? If one is busy accepting invites all over the world and abroad to preach to other congregations! other assemblies mind you that already have pastors. And if they are at home and shepherding as such then most of them believe they actually replace Jesus on earth as (the literal shepherd of the flock) But ah the good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep! And If the wolf comes, he doesnt take off ... but a hireling though flees - because he is a hireling, and as such does not care for the sheep. And should such genuinely care then more often than enough it Is because they believe the sheep actually belong to them - and the church is ACTUALLY there - CHURCH. (NOT CHRIST'S)

Jesus was trying to warn his disciples i believe without being to obvious as to whom he was speaking off - they were already out to get him - to take him and lay too hands on him, but his time was not yet up - or due (scripture advises)

Hirelings come to steal the sheep and bring them into bondage - and lead them about as followers WITH dumbed down minds ... who are forbidden from ASKING questions!

Its been well said before and so no need to go over old ground: however it bears repeating at this time: "if leadership is beyond being questioned" and we have to give unquestioned loyal submission regaredless of what is being taught ... then friends that is the framework of a dangerous sect and cult. And an authoritarian leader and/or leaders (per say)

Strong words: but somebody, somebody, has got to say it:

A few years back at a christian picnic where the senior pastor of a rather large church ... just happened to be the centre of attention on the day - with every body gathered round to listen to his experiences from an overseas trip. Anyway as time passsed i sat there and listened in literal shock horror as he freely admitted that he was hardly ever around ( that is his church) his "own" "home church" upon which he is the senior pastor.

But yet they still want to hold down the post of Ceo pastor and that of shepherds of large churches in spite of there many and frequent absences.

Another christian man who has been around for a very long time and knows what is going on with a lot of things said and i quote " what they are actually doing effectively is network marketing themselves to other churches and places which allows them to get a bigger name and increase there earnings " in other words and in plain simple language its all about extra Mun. Now mind you Those are his words and not mine. But you have to wonder how close some of it is to the truth? that is if the truth be known! As you cannot serve God and mammon. However i took careful note of his assessment and his words, that day! without throwing it out as being outrageous...

Personally speaking: My ears are attuned to the great shepherd, how about you? or do you follow men or other voices? rather than the great shepherd who is also the head of the church and the captain of our salvation. But Who are we listening to, and whose voice do we follow? valid questions indeed!

Jesus did not idly warn of hirelings for no reason! Paul did the service of God primarily without filthy lucre ever coming into the equation, money was not incidental to preaching the Gosspel, but rather he refused to charge for the preaching of the Gospel, even though he had the power like others (to live of the things of the Gospel) but more often than not money becomes sole and arbitrary dictator regarding service and sacrifice to God - and paul did not want money to dictate in this way. It was a labour of true love! In closing hirelings flee when things go wrong or when trouble arises. and then The sheep are left more often than not to fend for themselves and to fight off wolves! But the great shepherd of the sheep has already laid down his life for the flock - and there is no greater love than this than a man lay down his life - for his friends! Hirelings care not about the overall welfare of the sheep and past frienships (seemingly seem) to go out the window as the hireling moves on and because the wolf came and the hireling predictably flee(ed), leaving the sheep bruised and scattered! and more often than NOT THE SHEEP ARE LEFT in ruins and tatters - left to pick up all the pieces for themseves.

It should also be noted by the reader that the word or the gift of pastor only appears once in the entire new testament in the book of ephesians and about 7-8 times in the book of Jeremiah! failing those 2 books it appears no where else - and yet pastor apperently is everything today - it supercedes both the office of apostle and prophet , even though they were set in the church FIRST and the church is built upon the foundation of the pastors and prophets? or was that apostles and THE prophets?????

_________________
Bro Stephen

I must say, this post seems a bit unbalanced, to say the least. There is a lot of negativity and painting almost everything and everyone with the same brush.

Are all pastors hirelings? Do all jetset around the world? And uninvited too it would appear. In order for them to travel to preach elsewhere, would they not have to be invited?

Still, that's just an aside.

If it's wrong to call them pastors, as mentioned in Eph 4, then what name should they be known by?

If someone puts the name prophet, or apostle before their name rather than pastor, would that look better?

Fact is, who does all this venting help?

Eph 4v31, 'Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice.'

I doubt you have these characteristics. But let us fear even going in that direction.

God bless.

Jesus spoke these words ... what you do with the caution ... is up to you Enid. I throw back no aspersions in your direction Enid! I will not go there or get personal with anyone. I spoke in generalities and did not name call or single out denominations? Im just quoting Jesus' words. Where in the posting ... do i say ALL pastors are hirelings? be careful you dont quote people out of context or you yourself will become the unbalanced one - God is my witness i have no bitterness ... just asking questions?

Pastor is the only "gift" enid where they introduce each other by "Pastor" and then there first name comes after the title of pastor! So why not the same for the evangelist or the teachers? Is it a case of Rabbi Rabbi? ( i wonder) if were in danger of treading the same path? people Wanting to be known and promoted for there disctinctive title they hold? well im pastor so and so...

Why enid i was at a church recently and the pastors wife could not resist introducing herself as " hi im pastor so and so ...and then the first name follows the title of pastor. Enid you know what ?? I couldnt care less in one sense... IM brother stephen .... And my best friend is Joe bloggs .... Titles are tiltles .... why vaunt it though? We are allowed to be in the ministry.... if anything! Paul said to the thessalonians. ( its a previledge and you need the grace of God) to remain humble too! Be not high minded is another verse for your consideration. Another verse for your edification is "Jesus made himself of no reputation"
And be not called masters - and be not called rabbi rabbi - and seek NOT greetings in the market plces and IN street corners, as do the hyocrites - and to be called of men "father" years ago enid the roman catholic church went down the same path of honouring (the man in the cloth) above that which men should think them - to be. The end result was this is father so and so. Which tradition mind you still continues today. I didnt say its wrong to call them pastors! did i? only that the gift itself appears once in the new testament - not on every page or every second page - or every second book for that matter. What are we trying to do anyway.... glorify that one gift to the body of Christ?

Pastors being elevated to a status of high degree overlooks the fact other parts in the body who are less comely - actually recieve more abundant honour. But go thou and think upon that last saying! God bless you Enid. Thanks all the same for being the only contributor and responadant!!!

_________________
Bro Stephen

By the way: enid do you think your reply post had a negative effect on me? And do you care? If it did? But what i will say is this: Hirelings dont care for the flock if they see the wolf coming - what they do, do however is this ... take off and run! seeking new hire elsewhere. But a true shepherd (as was Christ) lays down his neck for the sheep! and the energy he puts into the flock is one that never ceases to have this testimony to its seal "The care of all the churches is upon me"

Just because you leave ( a bishoprick ) .... shouldnt mean the friensdships you made ... totally end and cease?

But hirelings (care not) as money is the means to an end. for he is a hireling - and sadly - money is the thing ... he seeks. Paul said to the corinthians ... i seek not YOURS ...but YOU

Money should be inconsequential! Peter and titus both said - do it ...NOT FOR ...FILHTY LUCRES SAKE. It should be a labour of love and the money is a bonus and most secondary to service for God! he is entitled to a living - but he enters not the ministry for that reason. But to serve God and his people is the primary reason, and the mun is secondary to the first motive and reason!

_________________
Bro Stephen

If you take away there title and money and tell them they cant run the meeting thats up to Jesus, and Jesus wants to work through anyone in the meeting for His glory only,I think most would step down if not all.