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Joined: 2005/3/31
Posts: 419
Son Of Thunder i come from a land down under, due south at the bottom of your work globes


Just a short post today brethren here @ SI but one upon which i would hope to get some feedback and would hope also that the topic is canvassed about! Recently not long ago i was in a deep discussion with someone who incidently (for all reading this post) is in the ministry and (full-time) Iow: he is paid to preach and teach the word. But However, and this is the point i wish to get to bring to everybodies attention. Upon having discussions about this and that and such and such (just general talk in a sense) he made the comment in passing to me (being a former Ceo senior pastor of a once rather large church) anyways He made the comment that only 2 opinions count! And That is: God's - and the pastors!

(end quote)

So the question is: If we conclude such a statement is Gospel, true, vaild, and authentic - Where pray tell does that leave the rest of us? who aren't perhaps Ceo pastor figures - within the church?

Where does that leave the little guy? or the average joe blow pew warmers within the chucrch - and them who dont hold down a position of leadership within the framework of the church???

Q. And Do we agree with the statement? That only 2 opinions count and matter? that is - His ( being a pastor and God's )

In other words: you can have an opinion, but in the final wash-up unless you are a pastor - it doesnt count!

Because brethren that is the essence of the statement if we understand it and interpret it - correctly!!

But my own reply to the question at hand i suppose is this:

Go to the event in John's gospel where the blind from birth got healed by Jesus spittle and clay, and read the entire text-in-full. You will find AS the story unfolds and progresses. The blindman starts preaching Christ immediately - both exhorting and talking up both the healer and the healing! and in fact the more he continues to preach to them - the more they get uptight and irate and finally he is told in essence to shut-up! and stop preaching to us. In fact the pharisees because of his new found faith in Christ and his exhorting eventually casted - him out - saying "dost thou teach us" ? who wast altogether born in sins. In other words (me paraphrasing) - they said " get out of here " "what a nerve - preaching to us" you have no authority to speak, preach or exhort...

Which brings us to the next point: Do we want another high priest situation again? when both paul and Jesus (for that matter) were either punched or threatened becuase they spoke back to the high priest! And the apostles also were flogged because that did not obey mans word - but God's

Let us not forget the pontificating days that took place by a certain denomination during the dark ages and oppressed God's people for centuries! do we want to really return to those dark days again, brethren? The apostle peter said if you are in a position of oversight - then you are NOT to lord it OVER God's heritage !! But as ensamples - to the flock! now ( whose heritage ) are they??

Q. when does authority go to far - and push the boundries?

A. Jesus speaking to his disciples when they were arguing who would be the greatest in the kingdom of God and over siting on thrones. ecet.

Responded this way: when he percieved in his spirit what they were fussing over! And its a warning that generations have failed to heed and understand: However Jesus answered there contentions this way: And he said to them " the kings of the gentiles exercise LORDSHIP over them: and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. BUT YE SHALL NOT BE SO: But he that is among you shall be as the younger; and he that is (chief) among you, as one that serves.

As someone that is a servant (servant by occupation and title) is what i believe is being conveyed here - more so than the actual act of serving! Jesus goes on to say i am among you as one that serveth! and that he did, when he cleaned and wiped there dirty feet and ministered upon them in many other ways...included feeding them with many, many times, literally dining on people and feeding them. Now that is a servant - at work!!

But Anyway you cut it or slice it - what Jesus said came with a caution of NOT LETTING POWER go to Your head OVER OVER IT! My understanding also tells me this (re: the ultimate authority thing) It culminated in satans original downfall. Inasmuch as the satan wanted and (still wants) to ascend (his throne) above God's ! Another example of ultimate authority is: For he sitteth in the temple as god -- shewing himself that he is god ( that is the man of sin )

It's a worry and a veritable concern! But i do acknowledge that men should rule well and take the oversight thereof!!

Q. But when does authority go ... too far????

Q. And No pun intended brethren: But opinions, thoughts, replies and answers will all be valued and treated with respect by me ... but more importantly - the Lord's.

Go to now: brothers and sisters!

God bless and be in peace and abound in his Grace! Amen!

Bro Stephen

 2010/10/29 5:59Profile

Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2669
Nottingham, England


Acts 5v29, 'Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, "We ought to obey God rather than men"

I don't doubt some are familiar with the above scripture.

Furthermore, God doesn't have opinion. He commands. He has His laws and ways that we are to obey.

No one's opinion matters. If opinion usurps the word of God, do we then listen to that opinion, or the word of God?

That pastor is wrong. Maybe he even knows it. If he doesn't should he even be a pastor? Seems his motives are wrong.

If there is no passion or desire for God's glory, and the lost souls of men, he should not be in the position he has.

We are to be servants, and to have a servant's heart toward others.

Thats it from me for now.

God bless

 2010/10/29 7:36Profile

Joined: 2005/3/31
Posts: 419
Son Of Thunder i come from a land down under, due south at the bottom of your work globes


Thanks enid, as usual very well thought out and mature wise comments is something we have come to expect and know from you! God bless! and have a great day - Enid!

Bro Stephen

 2010/10/29 7:44Profile


"anyways He made the comment that only 2 opinions count! And That is: God's - and the pastors!"

brother, when i first read that, i almost laughed.

and then my soul asked this question, which has been brimming in me this morning; Do not men fear God?

how arrogant of that dear man. i hesitant to give an opinion,but does he not fear God?

i would be so reticent, if i was a pastor, to DARE even breath such foolishness, fore this ALMOST treads the line of the 2nd Commandment, "You shall have no other gods before Me".

God the Holy Ghost is already telling the answers, and you will hear, amen.

 2010/10/29 8:20

Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2669
Nottingham, England


Quote: '...does he not fear God?'

Sad that we even have to ask that. But it is rhetorical.

It's obvious from what was said, that he doesn't fear God.

Hope we don't fall into the same trap.

 2010/10/29 8:25Profile

 Dear enid

your last line:

"Hope we don't fall into the same trap." me, that is a Terrible thing to even contemplate.

and the word "fear" in relation to "Fear God", is not some witless, mindless quaking fear, but a fear/reverence of the Holiness, Majesty, Mercy of God....and our place in that economy, humble and meek, grateful, joyous, careful not to spurn So Great a Salvation, working out our own salvation with fear and trembling, fear and awe.

i could go on and on, but lets PRAY hard, we NEVER fall into that trap. the opposite of that trap, is death to self, and death to self is like the pressing out of an olive.....hence, Gethsemane...olive press.

to be pressed out, broken, is never a "fun time", but its necessary, dont ya think?

love, neil

 2010/10/29 9:03

Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7494


Good question, Bro. Stephen....

You make excellent points as did the other posters responding.

Hebrews 13:17 NASB: 7 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

This verse informs us how one should submit.

Now what will you do with it?

From my observation, people are more likely to go to extremes on this issue. On the one hand you have the dictator leadership and on the other you have pastors who will allow their members to engage in all manner of sins with no fear from the pastor. The latter one being too intimidated by the fear of being called dictator, I assume.

Another thing is that people do NOT want to submit to ANYBODY! Women do not want to submit to their husbands, children to their parents, adults to their employers, people to the civil authority, youth to the elders, students to their teachers, students to each other (bullying) name it - people do not want to submit to any idea that does not originate within themselves. You end up having a bunch of adult brats!

There is a balance. Where is it? When does authority go too far? The reality is that we all submit to somebody... and who is that?

Must go - looks like you could have an interesting discussion...:-)


Sandra Miller

 2010/10/29 9:28Profile


So the question is: If we conclude such a statement is Gospel, true, vaild, and authentic - Where pray tell does that leave the rest of us? who aren't perhaps Ceo pastor figures - within the church?

Of course, you NEVER conclude this statement is Gospel true, because it is not. I am surprised when people actually ask this question.

First, let's stop calling something church which is not church.

God's authority never goes too far. Man's authority by definition has already gone too far when it usurps Christ.

Your statement is only true in Man's religious system but definitely not the Lord's system, if you want to call it that. I call it the Lord's family.

But if we read our Bibles we will see that this has been going on for a long time. The "leaders" bear rule by THEIR means, not the Lord's. The Lord's means are the means of a servant and not a hireling. Consider the following:

Jer 5:31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

So many, love churchianity rather than christianity and they love for someone else to be over them and spoon feed them.

So, if you are going to submit yourself to an ungodly system, then you should play by their rules otherwise why are you joining yourself to them? If you are joining yourself to them with the premeditation of trying to change them, you and many others will lose out. There are over 15000 church splits a year in America. Many think they can join a church and try to change their system, but what eventually happens is that a split takes place. Even to go into man's system and cause division and a split is demonic. Just leave quietly if you are not able to stomach their system and ways of doing things. And why would you be able to stomach it?

I have seen many idealistic brothers think that they can change the religious system but it will never happen, it always fails and they are deeply disappointed and in many cases hurt and damaged along with many other people.

If you try to make it reflect the NT, you will be met with demonic forces of animosity and rejection and they will marginalize and ostracize you. Why? Because you are threatening their system and most importantly, their livelihood. The system is built on man's authority (pride) and not God's and the engine is mammon (greed). If you appear to threaten these two things, (man's authority and mammon), you will run into a brick wall at best and a fiery ordeal at worst that will cause you and your family and possibly many others much grief.

So, do only two opinions count as you put it? Well, in the religious system, absolutely!!! And you need to open your eyes, and understand that. Yep, the pastor's opinion and god's opinion. I am not surprised that the pastor actually said that. But that god that he is mentioning is not the Lord Jesus Christ. Because, Jesus is never welcomed in the religious system, just a false Jesus, "another Jesus".

I will not tell you what the religious system is. It is for you to identify it. I will only tell you that you will know it when man is ruling and mammon is the engine and you will also see it when there is not mutuality between all brothers and the sheep are being taken advantage of.

The other thing is that so many people actually love the rule of man. They love to have someone over them that they can see. (walk by sight and not faith) and they love to hear only good things.

Isa 30:10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:

Regarding the false "leaders":
Eze 33:31 And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness.

When you are being "lorded over" by man, these men are not in subjection to the Lord Jesus, and they are "governing" you in a tyrannical way.

I have often wondered why people who are supposed to know God's Word and have His Spirit dwelling in them, would subject themselves to man's tyranny in the name of Christianity? I think it is because we have a desire for fellowship and want to please God and we don't think there is anything else around. We have had traditions passed on to us by our ancestors telling us that the current form of Christianity is the way it should be.

I used to be frustrated at the sheep for allowing themselves to be taken advantage of and angry at the false shepherds, but the Lord showed me in His word in many places that the people actually love this type of rule (Jer 5:31), and that this is the way it has always been and will continue to be. But, in every generation God is always calling His people out of man's system.

The Lord just told me to relax that He allowed the religious system to exist to test men's hearts. What God is seeing today is that men are really just rejecting Him.

1Sa 8:5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.

1Sa 8:6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.

1Sa 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

Read the rest of Samuel. The Lord even says that their new "king" will take a tenth (tithe) of their riches and give to his officers and to his servants.

And he will take a tenth of your sheep (people) and ye shall be HIS servants. Yep, serve the CEO and his board of directors. Ye shall be HIS servants. That's what the word says, I did not make it up.

1Sa 8:18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day. (Is this what you are doing right now, crying out?)

1Sa 8:19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;

So, people get what they want and then they complain. Nothing has really changed, since the OT, eh? Same thing today.

This is the way it will always be in man's system, (the false church) where Jesus Christ does not rule, but rather Saul (the flesh).

When you live in the false church, you have to ignore many things in the Bible just to make all the things that are happening around you "fit". Because, there is no way you can justify so many things with the Word of God, so you have to ignore that part of the Word (cut it out) or rewrite it with man's traditions.

If you willing join yourself to Saul, then you are accepting his rule (so don't complain). If you go against the King, you will be "struck down". Or you may end up being an Absalom or a Joab. We don't want to be a Saul or Absalom or Joab, do we?

Why don't you be what God has called you to be? A follower of Him.

Again, I will not tell you what the religious system is. It is for you to identify it. I have told you some characteristics. But, there surely is one and the chief shepherd and bishop of the false church is Satan. Ever since Cain, we see parallel churches in the Word. From Genesis to Revelation, there is the true Church and the false church. Satan has a counterfeit for everything that God has.

The Word is a lamp unto your feet and a light for you path. The Word and the Spirit tell you everything you need. We just need to start being obedient.

 2010/10/29 12:02

Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC


I believe a Biblically accurate of pastoral authority would be: Our authority begins where Jesus life in us is modeled by example, and it ends where we fail to model the life of Christ. There is no authority outside of that. Period.

Jimmy H

 2010/10/29 13:48Profile


Jesus life in us is authority. Each believer that is abiding (not modeling) in Christ has the authority of the Holy Spirit within them. We are not to submit to man carte blanche, but to the Lord Jesus in each believer as we recognize Jesus is in them.

Authority comes from receiving His life daily and abiding and submitting to Him. When we fail to abide in Him we have no authority because authority IS HIM. Abiding in Him, presupposes that we are submitting to Him, otherwise we are not truly abiding in Him. Abiding in Him is not doing our daily devotional or reading 5 chapters of the bible each day or "going to church".

We, the church, have such an incorrect view of what biblical authority is today and I think it is because we get part of our definition of it from the world. The other part comes from the Word. This is called "Mixture".

What the Bible calls it is leaven. Our view of authority is a hybrid definition of worldly and biblical terms. We do the same thing with the words "submit" and "rule". We only need the Holy Spirit's definition of these terms, not man's. And that is where so many problems in the church lie today: Mixture/Leaven - Mixing God's ways with man's ways which only create the doctrine of the Pharisees. Matthew 16:12

Man's definition of authority, submit and rule has then created a "ruling class" in Christendom. A privileged class in many respects.

No one has any authority in the Lord unless they come under (submit to)His authority. Even the centurion knew this.

Mat 8:9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

And in the Kingdom of God it is not the kind of authority like the world where we "Rule over men" and tell this person to do that and that person to do this.

Many say that they are under God's authority and submitting to the Holy Spirit, but by their actions they tell a different story. It is a story much like this:

Mat 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles (today's religious leaders) exercise dominion over them, and they that are great (leadership positions over men) exercise authority upon them.

Yes, "authority upon them". This is lording over God's heritage.

The authority the Lord Jesus gives us is not to exercise "authority UPON men" or exercise "lordship OVER men". We submit to the authority of Jesus in each Believer from the youngest to the oldest, not just certain individuals, but at all times we are always submitting to Jesus Christ, not to the "great ones", (see below).

Mar 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.

This is why many today don't understand the New Testament definition of authority. They have been taught that it represents men OVER other men in the church. That is the farthest thing from the truth of the Scriptures and what is demonstrated by the Lord, the Apostles and the early church.

The cemented mindsets we have regarding authority, submit and rule, continue to give "life" to the modern christian ruling class. And the ruling class perpetuates this thinking because it is good for them. It may not be good for you, but it is definitely good for them.

Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mat 15:12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?

Mat 15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

Mat 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Jesus said, "Let them alone".

Consider the following verses.

Acts 20:29-31 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

II Peter 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness

Jesus said He hated something and he said it twice. We should want to know about what Jesus made a point to say He hated (two times). I don't think I know of any other place where Jesus said that He actually hated someone's deeds and practices.

Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
Rev 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

Who are the Nicolaitans?
The root of the word Nicolaitans comes from Greek nikao, to conquer or overcome, and laos, which means people and which the word laity comes from. The two words together especially means the destruction of the people and refers to the earliest form of what we call a priestly order or clergy which later on in church history divided people and allowed for leadership other than those led by the spirit of the risen Lord. A good translation of Nicolaitan would be "those who prevail over the people."

This clerical system later developed into the papal hierarchy of priests and clergy lording over the flock. The Council of Trent stated, "If anyone shall say that there is not in the Catholic Church a hierarchy established by the divine ordination, consisting of bishops, presbyters and ministers, let him be anathema." It is not the question of the ministries but rather in the separation of them into a hierarchy over the people.

This very idea was taken over by the Protestants with their own corruption of leadership roles and coverings. The Church of Ephesus was commended for hating the deeds of the Nicolaitans. The wrong separation of the clergy from the laity is a great evil in God's sight and He hates the lust for religious power over others. There is an ungodly spiritual authority in the Church today, which is nothing more than the prideful spirit of control, manipulation, domination and intimidation and a rebellion of the rightful authority of God.

Faithful believers who have put on Christ Jesus, are all God's "laity". Peter exhorted us to:

Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not for filthy lucre but of a ready mind. Neither as being lords over God's heritage but being examples to the flock. And when the chief shepherd shall appear, you shall receive a crown of glory that fades not away.

Shepherds serve the sheep but the wolves that clothe themselves with so-called leadership and spiritual authority serve themselves, thinking that they serve God, in essence, this makes them false christs. Early church leaders were established as overseers, not a ruling hierarchy.

When ungodly authority is in place it is grievous.
Pro 29:2 When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.

 2010/10/29 17:25

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