This matter of believing, which rbanks pointed up, is given fuller consideration by Oswald Chambers in the following excerpt from My Utmost for His Highest, 28th October.


JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH



"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." Romans 5:10

I am not saved by believing; I realize I am saved by believing. It is not repentance that saves me, repentance is the sign that I realize what God has done in Christ Jesus. The danger is to put the emphasis on the effect instead of on the cause. It is my obedience that puts me right with God, my consecration. Never! I am put right with God because prior to all, Christ died. When I turn to God and by belief accept what God reveals I can accept, instantly the stupendous Atonement of Jesus Christ rushes me into a right relationship with God; and by the supernatural miracle of God's grace I stand justified, not because I am sorry for my sin, not because I have repented, but because of what Jesus has done. The Spirit of God brings it with a breaking, all-over light, and I know, though I do not know how, that I am saved.

The salvation of God does not stand on human logic, it stands on the sacrificial Death of Jesus. We can be born again because of the Atonement of Our Lord. Sinful men and women can be changed into new creatures, not by their repentance or their belief, but by the marvellous work of God in Christ Jesus which is prior to all experience. The impregnable safety of justification and sanctification is God Himself. We have not to work out these things ourselves; they have been worked out by the Atonement. The supernatural becomes natural by the miracle of God; there is the realization of what Jesus Christ has already done - "It is finished."

Die analogy reloaded.

1. When i posted that i meant to put a disclaimer as i could be easily misunderstood. The analogy was not that salvation is a random act. The point of the analogy was the eternal nature of the host of the game who new the outcome to every game before it happened. Thats as far as the analogy goes. I was not inferring chance has anything to do with salavation and i dont believe i said anything along those lines.


2. I did not imply or say that foreknowledge is equal to pre-determination (where God flips a coin and decides who is saved or not) i simply implied that in Gods foreknowledge he has called us who believe and it is because he knew we would believe he called us.


Hope that clarifies things a little

Hi rainman,

Thx for clarification you offered.

Thank you all for replying to my post. I have not read them all yet, but I'm working on it. I wanted to reply to my bro. Alive-to-God.

He said,

Hi ,

I just wanted to make a small comment about John 6:44 and John 6: 65

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


These two passages are some of the most misunderstood of the whole Scripture along with some passages in Romans 9 because, again, they are normally taken out of context.

Context is the most important principle in Bible interpretation.
I think these will be the last words I utter on me death bed, context, context, context.

Well, hopefully not.

If you read John 6: 64, and 65 together. It says:

64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Verse 64 explains why He said verse 65. Simply stated: It is His OMNESCIENCE that made Him say that.

I f you notice, in verse 65 He says Therefore I said unto you. In our modern language, He is simply telling them. “That is why I told you…

That means: He told them this before. This is the second time He tells them that. The first time was verse 44. So verse 65 is a repeat for verse 44. If you notice, the language is very similar.
So, let’s go to verse 44 to see the context. Please read starting from verse 41.

41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

If you notice, every time our Lord make a statement like that, it is after he sees unbelief.

The statement He makes describes an actual event. It was designed to created a doctrine about “The human inability” .

To understand the Book of John in general, we have to understand the background.

Jesus was speaking to the unbelieving Jews, and toward the end of chapter 6, He focuses more on Judas.

Here are the main points of the Book of John.

* Jesus came to His own ( the Jews ), but his own did not receive Him, but others did receive Him by faith, to whom He gave the right to be called the sons of God.

* John 5: 44 gives us the real reason as to why they could not believe on Him.

44How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and the honour that cometh from the only God you do not seek?

These people had the same heart problem Joseph’s brothers had. They wanted to be first and most important. That is why they envied and wanted to murder him.

Other Gospels reveal the character of these people. Such as Matthew 23 .
Please read it on your own.

Because they were of that nature, God has stepped in on the act of further hardening their heart using the following:

(1) He caused their Messiah to come from what appeared to be an adulterous relationship. We know this was their understanding from John 8: 41.

…Then said they to him, We are not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

(2) The circumstances of His birth, humble up-bringing.

If you notice that the town in which He did the least of His miracles was the town where He was brought up, because of their unbelief.

(3) The seeming violations of their ceremonial law He had committed.

There are other reasons you will find as you study the Scriptures.

* They claimed that God is their Father. John 8:41

So, here is the point Jesus was making by those two verses in John 6: 44,65.

He, in a way was saying to the unbelieving Jews by those verse.
You say that God is your Father, but you are lying. Your real father is the Devil. If God is your Father, He would not have hardened your hearts and caused you to stumble over me. The fact that you do not recognize me is in itself proof that He did not draw you to Me, because I am one with the Father.
So, the statement that some take to mean human inability to have faith in reality is saying that those who are seeking God will find Christ, because God and His Christ are one, but those who are hardened by God because of love they have in their heart for the world will not find His Christ.

So, instead of drawing the conclusion that man can not seek God, The conclusion that should be drawn is if some one does not find Christ > it is because God did not draw them > because they did not seek God but resisted Him.

This statement should be made only as a conclusion for seeing unbelief , resistance to God ‘s revealed truth, because this is the context our Lord used it with.

In other words, it is not describing the condition of mankind but of the wicked who resists the truth given in the Gospel over and over again.


Conclusion:

John 6 :44 ,65 stated in the form of a dialogue is as follows.

The unbelieving Jews: God is our Father, but you are not our Messiah.

Jesus: The reason your eyes are blinded that you can not see my true identity as your Messiah is that God, whom you claim to be your Father, did not draw you to Me.



( edit -- The Bible does clearly teach that God hardens the hearts of some, but that is not without a cause. He does it indirectly, and after prolonged resistance on man’s part.
Please read Romans 9 within the context to find out. Romans 9 has many quotations from the Book of Isaiah and best read after reading that OT book.)

_________________
Fifi

QUOTE:

"Context is the most important principle in Bible interpretation.
"I think these will be the last words I utter on me death bed, context, context, context."

Good one!

As I read and study, I remind myself of that all-important word CONTEXT quite frequently, using this helpful little ditty: :)

"A text without a context is a pretext for a proof-text."

Looking at Scriptures in context has really opened my eyes to a lot of things that I had passed over, simply because I was taught those same things out of context for many years. Proof-texting is epidemic in many, many groups.

Keep up the peaceful, Scriptural discussion brethren. I find this thread a very interesting read.

Love in Jesus,

_________________
Ryan G.

I guess what should be clarified is the use of the word 'calling'. Are we using the term eisegetically or exegetically in our interpretation? How many different contexts of the word are there?

The word 'call' in the Greek can have different meaning depending on how it is used. The tendency we have is to lean eisegetically to whatever meaning suits are arguments best without a careful study of context (I know as i used to be the number one culprit of this).

So lets look at the word "calling"


Eph 1

1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints in Ephesus,[a] the faithful[b] in Christ Jesus: (Paul's audience)


4For he chose us(=saints) in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight(our righteouness was ordained before the world created).
In love 5he[c] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.


[he choose us before the creation of the world to have a disposition that ultimately chooses good over evil empowered by the holy ghost to make such choices{yes i have taken a slight eisegetical line with the holy ghost bit}]

11In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

Chosen - alludes to Gods sovereign will
Believe - alludes to our will


Mat 22:14 For many are klay-tos'(called), but few are chosen. (is calling here general or specific?)

Romans 1
1Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, [klay-tos'] to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God—

Romans 1:7
7To all in Rome who are loved by God and [klay-tos'] to be saints:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

klay-tos'
invited, that is, appointed, or (specifically) a saint: - called.

The word klay-tos can mean

1. invited as a general invitation to humanity

2. appointed specifically to accomplish a divine purpose (calling) for God.

3. or specifically to ordained before creation to be a saint

so when i said that God called those he knew would choose him i am not using klatos its general sense but i was using the term 'called' in the more specific sense of those God has called to be saints.

Conclusion

God choose and called those in his foreknowledge he knew would believe. Did he make his offer to all humanity, indeed i beleive he did. Did jesus die exclusively for the saints only? I would lean towards a view of him dying for humanity. God "calls" out to humanity in the general sense but he also chooses, calls and appoints saints in his foreknowledge. In fact when we look at pauls typical greetings where he uses the terms "called" the word "saint" isnt to far of.

The context of the word call is important to understand before any interpretation is deduced. If the context is humanity then klatos could be inferring a general use of the term that encompasses the message of the gospel reaching every member of humanity if the word saint is used in close proximity then it alludes to a specific divine sovereign act of appointment by God almighty.

Hope this further clarifies how i have used the word 'call'

Romans 8:28-30 (New International Version)

More Than Conquerors
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[a] who[b] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; [those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.]


here is an example of where the term call or calling(kal-eh'-o) is use specifically in context of saints and not the entire humanity. Using 'call' in the specific sense this verse cannot be talking about the entire humanity as this would imply that all of humanity is justified. Hope i have layed down enough biblical presidence for saying

Hi rainman,

This post is slightly longer than I realised when I was writing it. Your patience appreciated, and my apology if it isn't as focused as you would like.


You have made your case for a more specific use of call as you read it in scriptural context, but my original statement 'God calls them all', is not the less contextual with regard either to foundational salvation, or, a specific calling to sainthood and a ministry.

I don't have enough Greek to start with the Greek, which may be a good thing, because I'm sure you'll explain it to me and we'll all benefit from the teaching.

So, when I say God 'calls' them all, this is what I have in mind.

There are several things going on simultaneously.

While a person is 'hearing' the gospel, it is the word of God itself which opens up his (or her) ears and the word of God itself which creates faith - that is, conviction of the truth of what is being heard and power to believe it.

This is a call to leave the world and sin, which has many implications for the hearer. It is a call to 'come out' of the world; to come out of bondage to sin. Already a lot is going on IN the understanding of the hearer of, and believer in, God's word to him or her specifically.

However, on responding to that 'call', the believer is greeted by the Lord, with more of His word. This is when it becomes more specific. For instance, when Andrew introduced his brother Simon to Jesus, Jesus declared 'You are Peter'. What? Where did that come from? What did that mean for 'Simon'? Simon had no idea whatever!

Likewise, Saul of Tarsus went through a similar series of events very soon after his first encounter with Jesus Christ: Acts 9:10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I [am here], Lord. 11 And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for [one] called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, 12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting [his] hand on him, that he might receive his sight. 13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: 14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. 15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

[Most particularly,]

16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.


Can you see that the 'appointment' part of having been called, comes after the initial postitive response of the hearer of God's initial 'call' to them personally?

And, that because of WHAT the call MEANS (separation from sin and the world), there is an undergirding all-pervasive assumption that the respondent has agreed to that separation, if he (or she) has believed the initial call OUT of bondage.

This separation forms the basis of the holiness (sanctification) which is an implicit qualification for any kind of ministry as a servant of God.


Now, using the picture of a family, it is clear that we name babies as soon as they are born. We 'call' them something, although they are nowhere near leaving home yet, or taking full responsibility for the implications of having become a member of that family. The same is true for many people in the spiritual realm. They are born again, and there is a 'calling' on their life which is completely clear to Father in heaven, but has yet to be revealed and embedded in the understanding of the son.

It may take longer for others work out how to categorise his ministry. In this respect, Paul telling us what he knew from the Lord, is very helpful, or what would we 'call' it? ;-)

Seriously, the person who chooses to stay in bondage to sin is called an unbeliever. I'm not sure people are 'unbelievers' until they have heard the gospel, because none of the penalties for their state of unbelief will apply to them until they are judged to have rejected the salvation offered in Jesus Christ.

This is what marked out those who had received the oracles of God on behalf of mankind when Christ did appear. Those who did not 'believe' had all the information available to identify the Saviour of the world. Jesus did not live for so long, that any of the religious leaders could say they didn't know about the angels who'd announced His birth, or Herod's slaughter of two-year olds. Some of them had lost relatives in that slaughter. Neither could they pretend ignorance of plots to kill Him BEFORE He was crucified. They were willing, even to SAY 'His blood be upon us and upon our children'! And, 'We have no kind but Caesar'. All this established them as unbelievers who could expect the wrath of God.


Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? [was it] not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?


So, in Hebrews 3:12 (above), it seems that 'when they knew God' (Rom 1), applies here also, the EVIDENCE of unbelief being the 'departing from the living God'.


There is room for discussion about how much Gentiles and heathens 'know' of God, and how their departure from Him will be reckoned in the judgement, compared with Jews and those who heard the gospel of Jesus Christ in their lifetime.


Here's a question: Is a person's 'will' 'free' before they have heard the gospel?

Interesting arguments you make (yes i did actually read that to the end) eisegetically i would agree with you on a few points but exegetically i would disagree on some as well.
I have chosen just a few points (before i get accused of thread hugging)


1.