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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : Forgetting Heaven: The Doctrine of the Resurrection

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KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Twice the apostle Paul exhorted us to "covet" the gifts of the Spirit. Do you object to this? If you are going to look at things through the strange lens that you are looking at them through, then the same accusations you are making towards me you would be making against the apostle Paul. For coveting (greed) is tantamount to idolatry in the Scriptures.


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Jimmy H

 2010/10/17 17:19Profile
MyVeryHeart
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Joined: 2010/8/30
Posts: 449
Paradise, California

 Re:

Quote:
No offense MyVeryHeart, but you don't really make any sense. I've encouraged nobody in idolatry.



Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains. John 9:41

"Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their hearts and have put right before their faces the stumbling block of their iniquity. Should I be consulted by them at all?" Ezekiel 14:3


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Travis

 2010/10/17 17:21Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Well brother, I'm sorry you feel I'm sinning in this. But let me save you any future trouble: I'm not going to repent of these things. So, for the sake of an actual discussion on this thread, I would ask that you please stop participating in what I hope will be a fruitful discussion. The exhortation was heard. But I will not repent of anything I've said as of yet.


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Jimmy H

 2010/10/17 17:23Profile
MyVeryHeart
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Joined: 2010/8/30
Posts: 449
Paradise, California

 Re:

Quote:
But I will not repent of anything I've said as of yet.



Do not put off repentance for it is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


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Travis

 2010/10/17 17:30Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

MyVeryHeart,

I just wanted to apologize to you. I feel like I was a bit harsh in my replies to you. Sorry.

Jimmy


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Jimmy H

 2010/10/17 19:06Profile









 Re:

comment withdrawn

 2010/10/17 19:34
MyVeryHeart
Member



Joined: 2010/8/30
Posts: 449
Paradise, California

 Re:


Quote:
I just wanted to apologize to you. I feel like I was a bit harsh in my replies to you. Sorry.



Jimmy,

I just want you to repent and to and say your sorry to God, not to me.

I am going to love you by the grace of God no matter what you say or do.


_________________
Travis

 2010/10/17 19:51Profile









 Re: Forgetting Heaven: The Doctrine of the Resurrection

I agree with this.

It also seems that Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Hyppolytus also defended the resurrection against the idea of going straight to heaven. Are you aware of that? If so, do you have any material you could share along those lines?

Do you also believe that the Paradise and Prison of Hades are inside of the earth?

 2010/10/17 20:09
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

It also seems that Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Hyppolytus also defended the resurrection against the idea of going straight to heaven. Are you aware of that? If so, do you have any material you could share along those lines?



I've never done an in depth study on the topic in regard to what these men have specifically said, but, I have read much of the writings of the early Church fathers. And from what I remember in their writings, along with other things I have read or been instructed in over the years, this would be correct. Unfortunately, I don't have their material at my fingertips. But their writings are easily available online, and I'm sure you could also find many summaries of their writings online as well.

Quote:

Do you also believe that the Paradise and Prison of Hades are inside of the earth?



I would say that when we die, we are brought into the presence of the Lord. For those who are not saved, they go to a place away from His presence. What these places are named exactly, and where they are located, I'm not 100% confident in saying, especially since there is perhaps some evidence to suggest the exact location of these places at least changed between the New and Old Testaments.

But if I were going to say anything in particular, though I would not be absolutely dogmatic in the details, when the righteous die they seem to be taken to heaven. It would seem this is also synonymous with the idea of being in "Abraham's bosom" and "paradise." Though some have suggested "Abraham's bosom" and "paradise" were simply the place where the righteous Old Testament saints went until Christ led the captive hosts out. But when the resurrection happens, they will come to life again, living here on earth, experiencing the fullness of Christ's heavenly kingdom.

When the unrighteous die, they are sent to hell (hades), where they are held in torment until the day of the resurrection. Upon the resurrection, they will be judged and tossed into a literal lake of fire (gehenna), located on earth, in which the righteous will see the smoke of their torment rising forever and ever.

That's at least, how I understand these things.


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Jimmy H

 2010/10/17 20:54Profile
MyVeryHeart
Member



Joined: 2010/8/30
Posts: 449
Paradise, California

 Re:

Quote:
Twice the apostle Paul exhorted us to "covet" the gifts of the Spirit. Do you object to this? If you are going to look at things through the strange lens that you are looking at them through, then the same accusations you are making towards me you would be making against the apostle Paul. For coveting (greed) is tantamount to idolatry in the Scriptures.



The question is why do you desire to attain to the resurrection of the dead? That is a heart issue. Why should we desire the spiritual gifts? For humanistic reasons? Or for God glorifying reasons?

Paul says he seeks to obtain the resurrection of the dead. Philippians 3:11

But why?

Phl 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

Why did Christ lay a hold Paul? For that is the same thing that Paul is seeking to lay Hold of.

Jimmy this is crucial.

Act 9:15-16 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; for I will show him how much he must suffer for My name's sake.

The suffering we bear is not for rewards it is for his Names sake. Paul was laid hold of to bear the name of Jesus Christ.God saves people for his names sake not man's sake. Ezekiel 36:22-27


Paul was seeking to lay hold of the name of Jesus. To perfectly Glorify his holy name. This should be what we are seeking to obtain. Because he is worthy of all glory, honor, and praise.


Quote:
And in light of living forever and ever, throughout all of eternity, what is it to waste your life now, in comparison to what you shall gain then?



Jimmy this statement is Humanistic because of what you speak of as gain below.

Quote:
new physical bodies enjoy for all eternity all the blessings that come with being saved




Quote:
But when you tell an old saint of God whose body has greatly failed them, and causes them much pain, that they have something to look forward to, that God has promised to one day give them a body that will no longer hurt, or cause them pain—that is a true message of hope.



Quote:
And being raised from the dead, no longer will we know sickness and pain.



Quote:
No longer will the troubles and struggles of life bother us.



Quote:
in the resurrection, we shall receive many times more than what we gave away



This is all humanism because the primary emphasis here is that man is happy. And that is the Gospel you are presenting in your article. Jesus Christ rose from the dead to make man happy when he dies and to keep him from getting singed by the fire of hell. That kind of Gospel is man centered. Its still "all about me". Just like the rest of the world. It is not all about Him. This humanistic Gospel presents a Christ who is fire insurance. Or a Christ who died like a rich uncle who dies and leaves his nephew some stuff? What about his inheritance?

Paris Reidhead's sermon Ten Shekels and a Shirt explains that this Gospel of Humanism is the "Betrayal of the Ages" and is "Unchristian". And I agree with Brother Reidhead that we serve Christ in this life, even if we go to Hell at the end, because he is Worthy. Our motivation is not rewards, such as a new body that doesn't get sick. That is a humanistic tradition of man. Our Cry should be like those two young Moravians who sold themselves as slaves and left their family behind as they went into the harvest field. "May the Lamb that was slain receive the reward of His suffering!"

I remember Art Katz saying that the Mark of an apostle is that he is Jealous for the Glory of God. Art teaches that the church as a whole should be apostolic, and jealous for the Glory of God. But humanism glorifies man not God.

Jesus wants a Bride that Glorifies Him by her righteous acts. A Bride like that is pure because her heart is purely devoted to his glory. It consumes Her. He consumes her.Listen to the Bridegroom Beloved! Hear his voice! “How beautiful you are, my darling, How beautiful you are! Your eyes are like doves behind your veil”, ablaze with Holy Spirit fire, burning with passion for the beloved Son of God. Oh Father in heaven, let us live in that blessed moment, when Jesus lifts our veil, and the glorious love of his holy kiss shines for eternity.






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Travis

 2010/10/18 6:32Profile





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