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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Michael Brown and James White defend the doctrine of the Trinity

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 Re:

by MyVeryHeart on 2010/9/25 11:57:58

Phanetheus,

I am concerned for you. For several reasons.

1) I am concerned that your love is growing cold.
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P:
How so?

I fellowship with both the Lord and other believers more than i ever have. Some even share all things as common as my family is learning to do better all the time.
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i really am not aguing with anybody per se.

Rather, this is a way of getting a clearer view of what the scriptures say.

Wanna hear something that will floor you ... and Snuf alluded to it:

All seven Spirits of God sent into the earth are in and of Jesus Christ. All are Holy. (see Rev. 5.6)

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that Edwards statement just doesn't fly. It's flawed in several ways, starting with the things in it that fly in the face of what scripture actually say.

The living abiding Word of God, Jesus Christ was not created, for starters.
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MVH:
"the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us." Romans 5:5


Rom. 5.5 is a favorite.

BTW, i don't look at Baptism in the Holy Spirit or any outpouring as an event seperate from salvation. This is parcel with it. Obedience is key.
(that might give light to perspective from here???)


Agapeo,
g

edited: error

 2010/9/26 20:45









 Re:

by live4jc on 2010/9/24 19:58:23


In John 14:16, Jesus promised that the disciples would be left with 'another Comforter'.

The question, could be asked, "Another, other than whom ? " Jesus, right ? To me this suggests, that just as the Father is distinct in personality from the Son- though both are God...so is the Holy Spirit.
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In the prophecy of Jn. 14-16 Jesus speaks that the Holy Spirit in relation to Himself.
Attributes are identical . . .

yet why is the Holy Spirit better after he is no longer present as their comforter?

Because He (Jesus) is in our Father and our Father is in Him, and will be/is in them/us.


Are you getting somewhere with me?

Hope so.


gregg

 2010/9/26 20:57









 Re:

(Just wanted to bump my questions as the thead seemed to fall by the wayside)

Hi Travis,

Quote:
so that by God's thinking of the Deity must certainly be generated. Hereby there is another person begotten, there is another Infinite Eternal Almighty and most holy and the same God, the very same Divine nature.



That makes no sense....at least to me. That God, by His own thinking, generated another Almighty who is a distinct different person but the same God? And if the "generated" Almighty came from the "ungenerated" Almighty then there was a time when the person of the generated Almighty did not exist. He at least didn't exist in being a conscience sepereate person. That is the logical conclusion of what Edwards said in the above quote.

Quote:
God the Son bore the Wrath of God the Father on the Cross and died,the Son was raised from the dead by the Spirit and "was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord" Romans 1:4



So if the Son bore the Wrath of God the Father then who bore the wrath of God the Son? Was the Son (eternal almighty) not equally offeneded at our sin? Was our sin only against the Father and therefore the Son was not sinned against when man sinned? And what about the Holy Spirit? Was He not offeneded at our sin as well? If the Fathers wrath was satisfied then who satisfied the wrath of the Son and the Spirit? Could the Father haved died for the Son or the Spirit have died for the Father? Was it just a choice of which persons of the divine Godhead would play which parts OR is our sin against the Father and we have to be reconciled to Him?

Blessings in Christ,

Sean

 2010/9/29 11:20
MyVeryHeart
Member



Joined: 2010/8/30
Posts: 449
Paradise, California

 Re:

But the LORD was pleased To crush Him... (Isaiah 53:10)

Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. (Genesis 22:10)

and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. (2 Corinthians 5:15)

Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:9-12)


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Travis

 2010/9/29 11:37Profile









 Re:

Quote:
But the LORD was pleased To crush Him... (Isaiah 53:10)

Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. (Genesis 22:10)

and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. (2 Corinthians 5:15)

Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:9-12)



Could you elaberate or give some commentary on how these verse apply to what you are trying to say? Sorry, I understand that these verses are relevant to the converstation but not quite sure what you are trying to say.

 2010/9/29 11:45









 Re:

Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, AND from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love. 2 John 1:3

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath BOTH the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9

 2010/9/29 11:52
MyVeryHeart
Member



Joined: 2010/8/30
Posts: 449
Paradise, California

 Re:

Scott,

These are the verses God gave me. I have said all God will allow me to say upon the topic of his divinity at the moment. I dare not speak concerning the things of God without his blessing. Peace unto you.

In Christ Jesus,

Travis


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Travis

 2010/9/29 12:07Profile









 Re:

Quote:
These are the verses God gave me. I have said all God will allow me to say upon the topic of his divinity at the moment. I dare not speak concerning the things of God without his blessing. Peace unto you.

In Christ Jesus,

Travis



OK Travis. I do hope that is indeed the case. I've often found, concerning this topic, that when people get asked to explain things they cannot that they often choose to bow out of the conversation...or they fall back on the statement that supposedly makes up for all the questions they are unable to answer simply by stating "it's a mystery".

May the Lord bless you Travis...

IN Christ,

Sean

 2010/9/29 13:20









 Re:

Quote:
Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, AND from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love. 2 John 1:3

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath BOTH the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9



Amen Pilgrim.. can you explain what you think these verses are saying in relation to the nature of God or the Trinity?

 2010/9/29 13:21
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

How does one become a Father? Only one way, by birthing a Son. Hebrews 1:1-8 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

The very first verse speaks to the Old That is done away, that which is the Law and the Prophets. Then gives the reason for the putting away the Law and the Prophets, to bring into view the Son of God, who is now the only One we have to do with. He now speaks through the Son, not the Law or Prophets. "For as HE Is in this world so are we".

By Christ the worlds were made and The Son was always with the Father and the Holy Spirit, these Three make up the God of the Bible. Christ is the express brightness of Gods Glory, Making Himself One with the Father and the Holy Spirit the One that does the Work of all Three, that is The Spirit of God who raised up Jesus Christ from the dead. The "another Comforter", whom the Son will ask the Father and He will send, "The another Comforter" to specifically teach us who The Son is and The Father to whom the Son will reveal the Father.

Now we get to the Grace of God, which is the Father-Son relationship that gives all of the Body of Christ, salvation of every believer. "I will be to Him a Father and He shall be to me a Son." Every believer has this Grace in them, The Fullness of the God Head bodily, Jesus Christ birthed in them by the Full Grace of the Incorruptable Seed of the Father, who is Jesus Christ in you the Hope of Glory. By this birthing we are now son's of God. We have no deity, but we have all the attributes of the Son that gives us full access to the Father, by the nature of the Son in us, through the Holy Spirit. These three are One. This is the full Grace of God the Father, even before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:2-6 (((Grace be to you,))) and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his (((grace,))) wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Now the separation of the Old from the New. That Jesus Christ is One with the Father and yet manifesting the Plan of God before the foundation of the World. Making son's of the Father by the Only Begotten Son birthed in them. Jesus told Nicodemus this is the only way he would see the things of the Kingdom of God. By the Grace of God the Father rebirthing His Son in believer that we could now approach the Throne of God Himself, not by human priests, but the the High Priest Himself, Who is at the throne of Majesty on high and in every born again believer.

How can anyone not see what Paul is speaking of in all His epistles? It is not revealed by man or study of the scriptures for it is said there is no life in them. This can only be revealed by the Holy Spirit whom this Christ in you is.

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Revealed in him. Not by man or word or deed, but by the Spirit of Christ in Him through the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Only when it pleased God.

Galatians 1:15-16 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

How do we get this revelation? "When it pleased God", If we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, then this revelation is available to those that are in Christ, for no one can believe that He is the Son of God except by the Spirit. Prayerfully ask the Father to reveal His Son in us.
Starting with all of Pauls epistles and some of Johns and a little of Peter's, "

1 Peter 1:18-24 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

Ro 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

In Christ, by the Fathers Seed, and power of the Holy Spirit: Phillip


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Phillip

 2010/9/29 15:01Profile





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