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Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 671
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

It is a very interesting article, but at the same time it is not fair to judge these men. Some may be true servants of God, some may not. So many factors go into it, like where they live in the country, what they do with the salary they receive (how they spend it), how many in their family etc.

For instance, what it costs for me to barley supply the very basic needs of my family of 5 in Los Angeles would be extravagant for a family of 3 in Fort Worth, TX

I personally work for the Lord and He supplies for all of my needs. I have my basic needs met and no more and am completely content and happy with that. My joy comes from serving God not from the monetary compensation I receive. If God was to provide $147k per year I would be happy with that also, not so I could lavish myself with world goods, but because I would be able to give to the furtherance of His kingdom and help others in His name.

It would be very easy to falsely judge a true man of God for making $147k per year when in actuality he has a large family, lives in an area like LA or NY, and gives a large portion of that to missions and evangelism activities. It would be very dangerous to falsely judge a true man of God.

ADisciple to answer your question below please check out the following article by Chuck Smith posted here on SermonIndex. It will give you some insight behind the Scriptural backing and thought behind the pastor or as commonly referred to as the "Moses" model of church leadership.

Quote:
Would somebody please show me where this "lead pastor" kind of thing is justified in the first place? From Scripture, I mean?



https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=14970


Patrick
www.jonahproject.com


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Patrick Ersig

 2010/9/17 3:11Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Savannah wrote,

"The closest you will find in the Scriptures to a "lead pastor", or the better known title "senior pastor" is in 1 Peter 5:4,

"And when the Chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away."

All who read that verse can be unmistakably assured of Whom the apostle is speaking.

May none of His people be guilty of Popedom, and attempt to take one of Christ Jesus' own titles to himself.

Let Romanism have their Vicars of Christ, but let His people be content to be called sons.


Amen to your post Savannah. You and ADisciple clearly experess what scripture teaches about New Covenant leadership. Most others seem to be caught in the trap and to condone the practice of western christianity of making 'godliness a means of profit'! I like what Zac Poonen teaches about money and leadership. He has practiced not receiving a salary for 50 years.

Christisking wrote: "ADisciple to answer your question below please check out the following article by Chuck Smith posted here on SermonIndex. It will give you some insight behind the Scriptural backing and thought behind the pastor or as commonly referred to as the "Moses" model of church leadership."

Moses?! I thought we were to follow the 'model' of Jesus Christ. He brought in a 'better' covenant with 'better' promises and he came as a servant to all and told us to do the same. How is being paid a salary to serve the body acting as a true servant? In no way should we use Moses and the Old covenant as a model for New Covenant practice, when Christ our head has already given us HIS model.


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Dave

 2010/9/17 4:53Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Shame on you 'again' KingJimmy, and on your pastor.



I'm sorry you feel this way Savannah. I'm sorry, but reading your harsh and vile post almost made me cry. You should probably speak about others as you would want them to speak towards you. Seriously. Love your brethren, many whom you have falsely condemned without even knowing them.


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Jimmy H

 2010/9/17 8:16Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

A word for Savannah: There is a difference between using your words as a dagger, and allowing your words to become as a sword.

Trust me when I say this, I have been far more zealous and loud in my wording than you have in the past. Few have blazzed the path of prophetic furry as I. Indeed, at this moment I'm far more zealous than you now. But one thing the Lord has taught me over the years, is that I should be so zealous for the Lord and for the truth and for the brethren, that I season my words with grace, kindness, gentleness, and all the fruit of the Spirit. Gracious and kind words not only have the ability to cut with precision, but they also have the ability to heal and make whole.

Learn to use your words. And by God, pray before you ever post something as vile as you posted again. Seriously. Words should be choice and precious. They should be as silver.


*edited*


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Jimmy H

 2010/9/17 8:38Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Would somebody please show me where this "lead pastor" kind of thing is justified in the first place? From Scripture, I mean?



This is a great question, and of course, the Scriptures know nothing of a Moses like Senior Pastor apart from Jesus Christ Himself. Some of course, think in His absence from earth (as He is in heaven) that somehow creates a job opening for the position. But as the Scriptures teach, God has made Christ "Lord of BOTH heaven AND earth."

However, even with that said, there are very godly men who believe they are the senior pastor of a church. Such is a great theological and practical mistake. But, it is a mistake none the less. And just because they've made this mistake, most very sincerely so, doesn't mean we have the right to cast stones at them, or to refuse to honor them in the Lord as being an individual the Lord has given us for our spiritual well being.

And if our elder brother is consuming himself with the Lord, prayer, and ministering the word, and taking great pains at reaching out to the lost, I see nothing wrong in a local assembly deciding such a man is worth whatever pay they think is just in compensating him for his labors. There is great room for charity in this area. As a rule of thumb, the church should avoid the EXTREMES of making the pastor rich, as well as making the pastor poor. There is no virtue in either.

And from there, let that pastor decide if he will accept the churches pay, and if he does and it is too little, let him also consider getting a job outside of the church. I think he should make enough "to live with dignity." Numerically, this will differ depending on what part of the country you live in. It costs a lot more to get by in New York and in Los Angelas than the mountains of North Carolina.

If an elder rules well and labors hard, the Scripture says such a man is worthy of double honor. Some of you are greedy and jealous, or are simply poor students of the word, but let that verse mean what that verse means: justly compensate a minister for his labor of love unto you as well as the Lord. He deserves it.


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Jimmy H

 2010/9/17 9:41Profile









 Re:

Savannah quotes.........

""What began as a movement in Jerusalem became a philosophy in Greece, an empire in Rome, a culture in England and an enterprise in America."

Well quoted Savannah. Are there well meaning people within a sick system? Yes. Does that in any way justify them? No. The established church is sick and dying becuase of their arrogance. And what is the arrogance? That they know how to run a church better that God. The one man system is a pale imitation of the Church of Rome. Here is the latest post from brother Andrew Strom...........

"THE BRIDE Will LEAVE CHRISTENDOM"
-Vision by Wayne Thomas.

The following vision is probably one of the most well-known that has ever come out of my home nation of New Zealand. It is a key vision that has been acknowledged and read around the world. This vision was given to Wayne Thomas late in 1993. He told me that it was probably the most powerful he had ever seen.

VISION of THE BRIDE LEAVING CHRISTENDOM
-Wayne Thomas.

Basically, it was a traditional wedding scene. The radiantly beautiful Bride had just stepped out of the Cathedral and was standing on the top step, just outside. Wayne was told that the Bride was LEAVING 'CHRISTENDOM' (AND ALL THAT GOES WITH IT) FOREVER, leaving
the 'church' system behind. The Groom (who was Jesus) took her arm, so that He could lead her down and proudly display His beautiful Bride to all the world.

Still inside the Cathedral were all the relatives (-the various 'streams' and denominations of the church as we know it?) Suddenly, while the Bride was still on the top step, an invisible hand gave her a beautiful lily (which had been plucked out by the roots). This was her bridal 'bouquet' (an "end-time" enduement?) and for some reason it seemed to be given to her rather late. She
threw this bouquet backwards, and some of her relatives in the church, who had been watching her with great jealousy and awe, made a grab for the bouquet. Two of them seemed to snatch it up, but there was a lot of squabbling and pushing amongst them - fighting to be somehow near the Bride or to grab the bouquet. The Groom then led His Bride
down the steps and through the huge crowd of cheering people below, who had been unable to get into the Cathedral.

In a later vision, Wayne was shown that after they had made their way through this huge throng, the happy couple were then taken away on their honeymoon, which was to last for a thousand years.Wayne later made the following comments about this vision: "The Lord emphasized these things to me:- That the Bride is so in love with the Groom - and the fact that she is pure and holy, and
the problems of life are far behind her in this time frame. The crowds outside see this intimate love between the two, and that no burden in life stops her from expressing this love. She leaves the guests behind
to squabble over the bouquet, and her desire to share this love with the crowd outside is very evident.

"The fighting wedding guests are those within the church who in their hearts are ambitious for titles to impress the body and are caught up seeking the gifts (bouquet anointings) and not the giver. They are involved in grand schemes and politics within the church - and they
love 'comfort'. They are those who get close to the Truth but do not want to live the truth.

"The Bride - leaving the guests behind - is made up of Christians seeking truth in Jesus alone, no matter the cost, leaving compromise behind and seeking Jesus first before the praises of men."

ANDREW AGAIN: There are some quite shocking implications
to this vision, but it lines up with so much that God has spoken along similar lines in recent years - ie. GREAT REFORMATION - not just Revival. What are we to make of this - that the BRIDE Will LEAVE the "CHURCH SYSTEM" FOREVER??

Does it line up with Scripture? Does it make sense? Is it possible?

The Book of Acts Revival, the Wesley and Whitefield Revivals, the Cane Ridge Revival, the Early Salvation Army Revivals, and of course Jesus' own ministry in the first place - these were all massive "outdoor" moves of God. Could it be that they are pointing the way to what we are about to witness in our own generation?

-Please comment on this at the following website-

http://www.johnthebaptisttv.com/

 2010/9/17 9:57
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Jimmy said, "However, even with that said, there are very godly men who believe they are the senior pastor of a church. Such is a great theological and practical mistake. But, it is a mistake none the less."

That was exactly my point, Jimmy. Thanks for acknowledging it.

There's no doubt that many of these men are sincere, godly men. Nevertheless they are involved in a "structure," a system, that isn't according to the original blueprint of the Masterbuilder. And I believe we are in days when we are going to see the Masterbuilder coming onto the jobsite and tearing down all that is not His own project.

I honour and respect these men who are doing their best to serve God in the present order.

At the same time I am seeking to identify with the Light that God has shed on my pathway. I MUST do so, by His grace. It's a matter of obedience. I believe we are living in tremendous days. I believe we are going to see in a more pronounced way that ministry of John the Baptist-- of Elijah, I mean-- that restores things to the original intent God had in the first place. Elijah, in a day of great apostasy and idolatry, he builded again the altar of Jehovah that had been broken down. This ministry was there in Christ's first appearing, and it has been there in measure througout church history from time to time, calling the people to repentance, but I believe we are beginning to see it come forth again in a very powerful expression calling for a return to, if I may use the expression, "primitive Christianity," so that God may bring forth in the church and by the church His original intention: the body of CHRIST Himself. I'll just leave it at that, and may the Lord open our eyes to grasp the tremendous awesome implications of this.

...The kind of "model" we see church being patterned after is very far from its beginnings, the true Biblical pattern. We need to return to that, go back to that... so we can MOVE AHEAD to what God has in mind. And this is not something we can manufacture just by trying to discover the true Biblical pattern, and putting it together with our own hands. It will only come about by a true returning of heart, by brokenness, by tears, by deep repentance, by giving the Spirit of Christ His lordship in our midst again. Christ Himself must build HIS church.



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Allan Halton

 2010/9/17 11:24Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Nevertheless they are involved in a "structure," a system, that isn't according to the original blueprint of the Masterbuilder. And I believe we are in days when we are going to see the Masterbuilder coming onto the jobsite and tearing down all that is not His own project.



I completely agree. There is an awakening in our land and others concerning these very things. I think we can expect things as we know it to drastically change within our life time. I see in the Lord many in the church returning to a much more primitive form of church. I know as part of my calling, I believe the Lord has, in part, charged me to participate in this. One day, I blieve the Lord has called me to plant a church that however imperfect, is something much closer to the apostolic model than most of us have ever known.

However even with that said, I think there is still room for justly compensanted ministers. Ideally, I would like to work at the most a part-time job so that I can do some open-air evangelism on college campuses during school hours. Frankly, working 55+ hours a week like I do right now, such simply is not possible, unless I take a vacation. But vacation time is harder to come by these days.

So "practically" speaking, I think there is still some room to have a "salaried" minister in a local congregation. But if he is going to be salaried, I think he definitely needs to be very heavily focused on evangelism.


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Jimmy H

 2010/9/17 12:11Profile
JB1968
Member



Joined: 2009/8/31
Posts: 416
Ohio USA

 Re:

Sometimes, overpaid pastors forget how the average person in his church lives. Then they become very materialistic bragging about their boat, motorhomes, stocks, cabin at the lake, etc...
I believe that a pastor should be paid well. Paul said that a laborer is worthy of his hire, but it is easy to become a hireling as Jesus said.
Does a pastor need a huge salary, free home, free benefits.... etc.?
We need to keep our focus.
But on the other hand, some churches expect their pastor to be dirt poor, and then to be sacrificial. Shame on some churches!


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James

 2010/9/17 15:24Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Does a pastor need a huge salary, free home, free benefits.... etc.?



He sure does. Otherwise how would you attract the calibre of men such
as Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar, Kenneth Copeland, ect to tell you what you want to hear?

 2010/9/17 16:04





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