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todd
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Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Quadrinity?

Recently I have been thinking a lot about the concept of the trinity. Some of this discussion has taken place in this forum.

At this point it seems to me that the problem lies with confusing or unclear terminology more than with conflicting concepts. Both camps agree that God is one. But one camp states that there are three persons in one God, while the other states that there are three manifestations of one God. So the big difference seems to be over the terms "persons" vs. "manifestations."

This morning I read something that I wanted to throw into the mix.

Luke 11:49
"For this reason the wisdom of God [b]said[/b]..."

THat's all I need to referrence for the sake of this post. The wisdom of God speaks.

Is the "spirit of wisdom" the same thing as "the wisdom of God?" Is it found within the Spirit of God? Or is the Spirit of Wisdom it's own "thing." Is it a manifestation or a person?

 2003/9/1 14:29Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2768
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: Quadrinity?

Quote:
Is the "spirit of wisdom" the same thing as "the wisdom of God?" Is it found within the Spirit of God? Or is the Spirit of Wisdom it's own "thing." Is it a manifestation or a person?



Todd, you may find the following helpful, it's from Adam's Clarke's commentary on this Luke verse;

The wisdom of God - These seem to be Luke's words, and to mean that Jesus, the wisdom of God, (as he is called, 1Cor 1:24), added the words which follow here, on that occasion: and this interpretation of the words is agreeable to that of Matthew, who makes Jesus speak in his own person: Wherefore behold, I send you prophets, etc., Mat 23:34.

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2003/9/1 17:49Profile
todd
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Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Thanks Ron, so you do you think Clarke is right? Isn't he in essence saying that Luke messed up? Maybe you could clarify for me because the grammer was a little confusing for me.

 2003/9/1 18:00Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2768
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
Isn't he in essence saying that Luke messed up? Maybe you could clarify for me because the grammer was a little confusing for me.



Mr. Clarke is not saying that Luke messed up, he's just pointing out a remarkable variation of the words used in Matthew 23:34. Jesus is the wisdom of God and it's as if He was saying I am now going to carry out the warnings of the prophets of old. I think this speaks to His deity and who else but the Lord could carry this out?

He is called the wisdom of God because by Him God makes known his wisdom in all things. (see Col 1:13-18 and 1Cor 1:30)

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2003/9/2 13:10Profile
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 Re: Quadrinity?

Quote:
Recently I have been thinking a lot about the concept of the trinity.


Hey Todd. I am going to be frank here please don't take it as an insult. It's good that you are thinking of this idea of the [i]trinity[/i] and it's good you are trying to find out information about this from other members on the forums. But I really believe that there are Church fathers and saints throughout the ages that have thought and prayed about this more then we will probably ever do. With that said I think it would be benefical to even listen to the A.W. Tozer sermons on the character of God, I am sure he discusses the [i]trinity[/i] and most of what he gleams is from Church fathers and mystics throughout the ages.

here are two other forums on this subject:
[url=http://66.139.79.202/sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=184&forum=36&22]The Trinity--what are your views[/url]

[url=http://66.139.79.202/sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=242&forum=36&26]Trinity and Hebrew grammar[/url]

I would also encourage you to find some old good teaching on the doctrine of the [i]trinity[/i] by a Church Father. hope all this helps.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2003/9/2 18:36Profile
todd
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Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Ron,

You wrote:
"Mr. Clarke is not saying that Luke messed up, he's just pointing out a remarkable variation of the words used in Matthew 23:34. Jesus is the wisdom of God and it's as if He was saying I am now going to carry out the warnings of the prophets of old. I think this speaks to His deity and who else but the Lord could carry this out?

He is called the wisdom of God because by Him God makes known his wisdom in all things. (see Col 1:13-18 and 1Cor 1:30)"

Thanks for clarifying. But this is still unclear to me. It's a neat clue to Jesus' divinity that He says "I" in Matthew but says "the wisdom of God" in Luke concerning a very similar prophecy.

Does this in fact mean that they are the same exact thing? I am not sure. Just as Jesus and the Father are One, and if you see Jesus then you see the Father, and yet somehow they are unique, this could be a similar case. Right?

And both of those verses you referenced (Col. and Cor.) don't call Jesus the wisdom of God out right ("wisdom from God" is not the same as "the wisdom of God"). It seems that it is only implied. And I am cautious to draw conclusions from implications.

So the "Wisdom of God" spoke it in the past tense, and Jesus speaks something simliar in the present (to them)? This just speaks to me some more about the notion that Jesus is God and that the fulness of God dwells in Him. But couldn't "The Wisdom of God" still be considered a "person"? You may say "Yes, it could be Jesus" and I agree. But I mean if we are going to speak of unique persons as some speak of within the trinity. Using terms like "as well" or "with" Jesus- how some may understand and verbalize the triune relationship. ANd "THe Wisdom of GOd" is with "them" so it's more than three? Maybe God is infinite in "person" as well.

In fact (I could really use some help here) isn't the wisdom of God portrayed as a woman in the Old Testament? Also, I once (and I think only once) heard that some Greek term or terms for God, Lord, etc. in the New TEstament are in the femenin (spelling?) form. Know anything about that?

Greg:

I just listened to Tozer's first sermon in the "Attributes of GOd" series. I hope to listen to much more in the near future. I think this could be a big help.

Quote:
" I would also encourage you to find some old good teaching on the doctrine of the trinity by a Church Father."

Good idea. You got any recommendations?

 2003/9/2 19:36Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Hi Todd,
Here is one if you can find it:

"St. Athanasius On the Incarnation"

[size=xx-small][font=Georgia]ST VLADIMIR'S SEMINARY PRESS CRESTWOOD, NY 10707[/font][/size]

I included the address because I don't know where the person who gave it to me got it from...Struck up a conversation with him in a bookstore and he sent it to me...I think I still have his email and could find out where he got it if you are interested and/or you have troubles locating it...

I haven't read it in a while, but I do know that Athanasius was a strong defender of the Trinitarian doctrine and lived around the 3rd century...It also has a forward by C.S.Lewis


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Mike Balog

 2003/9/3 0:37Profile
todd
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Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Crsschk,
THanks for the recommendation. I found it on amazon at this link:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/flex-sign-in/ref=cm_rate_rev_pagepos3/002-3874782-1531215#rated-review

but it's not the same version as you have. the reveiwers say it doesn't have the intro by Lewis. I would really like to read that. How long is it?

Apparently it is found in Lewis' book "God in the Dock" which I have been wanting to get for awhile now anyway. Maybe now is the time.

Thanks brother.

 2003/9/4 12:29Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Hey Todd,
Here is a couple:

www.gty.org/~phil/history/ath-inc.htm

www.scholia.net/c_s.htm


Also, try this one at Amazon, sounds like it does have the Lewis Intro:

www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0020832001/qid=1062702304/sr=12-3/102-8274151-6234516?v=glance&s=books#product-details

If you have any more problems let me know I can contact him and find out where he got his copy...Tried the SVS press site where it came from, but didn't have any luck there....Let me know
Mike

P.S. Here is the SVS site if you wanted to call them directly
www.svots.edu/SVS-Bookstore/index.html


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Mike Balog

 2003/9/4 15:26Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Thanks for the help. I just read that Lewis essay in "God in the Dock" down at the local Christian bookstore. It was enlightening. I am looking forward to reading that book eventually. Thanks again.

 2003/9/4 19:46Profile





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