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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : I found this debate interesting "Trinity in the Old Testament"

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jlosinski
Member



Joined: 2006/9/11
Posts: 294
North Pole, Alaska

 Re:

Allow me to clarify- I'm not questioning those who are unaware or ignorant concerning the doctrine of the Trinity, but rather those who explicitly deny the doctrine. I know that Oneness Pentocostaly affirm baptism for forgivness of sins as well. Sooo... denial= heresey?

 2010/8/24 16:09Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!

 Re: I found this debate interesting "Trinity in the Old Testament"


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So if someone denies the doctrine of the Trinity, it that heresey? I'm not trying to start somthing here, and hope nobody else does either, but I've always thought that denial of the Trinity was heresey and that true Christians affirmed that doctrine.
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Jlosindki,

I used to work with a couple who were Apostolic. Her husband and I were talking one day and he said they were Pentecostal. And I asked him if they believed in the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues and he said yes, they did!

Denial of the trinity and trinitiarianism are both man-made doctrines, imho. I could be wrong but I humbly submit that because both Apostolics and Christians receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost along with the gift of tongues (edit: as well as all the other gifts) that this (to me) proves that God does NOT differentiate between either belief that Jesus is God, Son and Spirit and Three in One believers!

God bless you,
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2010/8/24 16:17Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Yes, denial of the trinity is heresy.


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2010/8/24 17:14Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

I know that there are certain doctrines which are essential to Christianity and salvation. But I'm not too sure if the Trinity is one of those essentials, especially after meeting that lady I mentioned earlier. I'm sure you guys know how when you meet someone sometimes you connect in a certain way and you have a sense that they are a true believer after talking with them a few minutes. That's what I sensed with this lady. I did not even know she was Oneness until after we had a lengthy conversation about the things of God, things like the deity of Christ, having a heart for seeking the lost, loving and serving the Lord in the midst of trials, etc. It was surprising because I had met Oneness people before but never really felt any connection like with this elderly lady.
I know for sure that the Deity of Christ has to be an essential because Jesus makes that very clear in the gospels. He said, "unless you believe that I AM He you will die in your sins."(John 8:24) The word "He" is not in the original Greek so He actually stated that He is the "I AM" of Ex.3:14.


_________________
Oracio

 2010/8/24 18:06Profile









 Re:

Thank you Oracio and Lysa.




Brothers and Sisters in Christ Jesus,

Adonai Eloheinu Yir'eh that we know, one day will make it so we will not see through a glass darkly.

Now is not that time.

There is no intention of debating this issue, but i'll spill the beans for those curious.

For those of you who wish to discuss Tanakh, what i have been taught is that Jesus manifestation to His people in the O.T. is YHVH --(and this is not the name of the Father). When Jesus came to earth, living, dying, then living again immortal in the flesh, Y-H-V-H took on one letter into this name, becoming Y-H-Sh-V-H. This means, that "I AM" -(in a loose translation)- became "I AM PRESENT (TO SAVE)."



i opened another can of worms, (that i am adamant about), yet if you hold to three aspects and not four, or three persons and not two, that is between you and the Lord.

Yes, the Holy Roman Catholic Church declared it Heresy to not believe in trinity at one of their (ridiculous) councils pronouncing a wide array of anathemas ...so it must be heresy, right?
(After all, we must recreate God into an implicitly ambiguous personae so nobody can be sure who or what we are dealing with ...even as man doesn't know himself and is non-changing?)



The concept of Godhead has shifted over the years --from trinitarian onto oneness onto seeing God as two-- , yet in each change of perspective, greater light into God's revelation of Himself through revelation of scripture lived out has opened new vista's into knowing Him more deeply.

Because Jesus took on the likeness of a man, all the things said about the Holy Spirit are spoken regarding someone seperate and distinct. (Please consider this in thinking it blasphemy against God's Spirit (that is Holy), for me to reckon God as two persons who are One in Spirit and Truth.


When i cry out to Abba El Elyon, the Spirit of Jesus Christ comes and works salvation in the most astounding ways. i have witness in others great deliverances from sin(s), miracles, healings, and restorations of many various things that the majority of believer's(?) would say, "well let's just pray and ask God's will be done in this," or in failing to recieve what God wants for us (as specified in the scriptures), persistence in prayer is mentioned or even "well, maybe God has other plans."

I do not know a God who is ambiguous about who He is, how He represents HIMSELF to man, nor what He desires of and for us. Jesus is God's revelation to man, whether He manifests Himself by the presence of His Spirit or when He comes again to earth.

Jesus Christ crucified is the will of God for every human. In dying daily, we are imputed with the Spirit of Life in and of Jesus Christ.



Anyway, no matter what you know of God, the bottom line is this:

To live life in His Spirit,
we must take up our cross and die daily
(minute by minute);
and to mature
we must become childlike
(minute by minute): confidently resting all our trust and reliance in Him, dependently expecting Him to speak and answer us through this remaining ... communing within Him.

i may not be right and i don't really care. I have a relationship with the One who is implicit and is not ambiguous.

He is here and He is never silent.




There are two questions though:

1. In considering the Holy Spirit as someone seperate and distinct in person from our Father and our Brother, does this in any way direct attention towards something other than Christ Jesus or Abba?

2. Since thinking the Holy Spirit is a distinct and seperate individual united with Father and Son, why not pray to Him?

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


"Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
II Cor. 3.17-18
---------------------------------------------------------

שַׁאֲלוּ שְׁלוֹם יְרוּשָׁלִָם
"Sha’alu shalom Yerushalayim"
"Pray for the peace of Jerusalem!"

May Israel be unveiled and step out into the Light.

Rom. 11.15: “For if their casting Yeshua aside means reconciliation for the world, what will their accepting him mean? It will be life from the dead!”


God Bless you all in seeking Him,
g

 2010/8/24 19:49
RainMan
Member



Joined: 2010/4/21
Posts: 227


 Re:

Like most people i try to avoid christian dogma like the plague. Many scriptural things have been worked into modern day christian theology somethings are damnable others not so damnable. If we are honest and meek we will realize at some point as much as we think we know God we haven't even begun to scratch the surface. When we get to the point where we are literally dying of a hunger for God we then give up ideology and lean not on or own understanding. There will be times like myself where you will think you are right only for Gods spirit of truth to lead you to the truth of a matter. As long as we are not blind he will have no problem leading us. Pride is something we have to be conscious of so we don't get puffed up.

Quote:
There are two questions though: 1. In considering the Holy Spirit as someone separate and distinct in person from our Father and our Brother, does this in any way direct attention towards something other than Christ Jesus or Abba?




Jesus said that the Holy Spirit only speaks what he hears our lord speak and he will always glorify Jesus.

10"Do you not believe that (N)I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? (O)The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.


The Holy Spirit speaks as God because he is God. In Acts we see numerous occasions when we see the Spirit speak "Expressly" with very coherent instructions to the apostles. When i pray if the Spirit speaks to me i respond to God not to the Holy Spirit (This is something the Holy Spirit corrected in me as i had learnt error). Prayer in the Holy Ghost to me is the most effective prayer you can pray. The bible says that the spirit knows the mind of a man then it talks of the Holy Spirit knowing the mind of God. Thats why the Holy Spirit can reveal God to us because he is God and he knows the mind of God.

Quote:

2. Since thinking the Holy Spirit is a distinct and seperate individual united with Father and Son, why not pray to Him?



Jesus gave a format for prayer before his crucifixion. When the Spirit was poured out of heaven on pentecost a dimension of prayer (prayer in the Spirit) was now available to as believers. The Father Glorifies the Son The Son Glorifies the Father and the Spirit Glorifies and points to the Son. None of the Godhead seem to want to Glorify themselves. When Jesus was on earth he didnt Glorify himself. So now the Spirit of the Father and the Spirit of the Son is here with us it makes sense that he would not want to Glorify himself either.

In light of new testament scripture it is virtual impossible to infer with sound hermeneutics that the Holy Spirit is not indeed a distinct individual.
Some will say that the use of IT/HE might mean the holy spirit was only referred to as a HE in a similar allegorical fashion to Wisdom. The difference is demonstrable by scripture
1.The Spirit has a will

2.He hears

3.Speaks expressly

4.Has koinioia with us(fellowship of the holy spirit)

5.Makes intercession on our behalf when we pray in the spirit as we don't know what we really should be praying for.

6.Teaches and leads us

26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

7.Comforter





7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Both whether we infer the God-head is comprised of two or three or even just one. This is most likely inferred from scripture implicitly as to the best of my knowledge i can find a scripture that says

"I am your god, and the God head comprises of 5.257 parts". To so God doesn't exist so he is 0 to others there are many Gods so they would have the number at infinity.

------------------------------------------------------------
Gods nature and essence is an absolute truth and not a relative one.
God said he would not give his children a stone if the ask for bread and i believe him. Its the devil that gives stone in place of bread *think about it stone for bread*



{Edited for clarity}

 2010/8/25 6:18Profile
RainMan
Member



Joined: 2010/4/21
Posts: 227


 Re: Holy Spirit

Some JW's say the Holy Spirit is just a force of God. We all know the Spirit is the dunamis (power) of God.

Carnally energy has various forms from kinetic, to chemical to solar etc. As human beings we are move when our muscles provide the force for movement.
Because we posses the ability to digest organic material and produce energy to run does this power we posses make us cease to be sentient beings?

Like i would say to JW's the fact that the Holy Spirit is dunamis doesnt infer he is not a person. I have often asked for another example of an impersonal spirit in the bible (one without demonstrable consciousness) but there doesn't seem to be such a thing as a spirit that is not personable in context of spirit beings. I have tried looking for a spirit that is not a being but cant seem to find one.

If i said
"a man walked into a room and began to talk and i noticed a "spirit of humility" ."

I can either be talking about an impersonal disposition or an actual spirit being of humility.
hermaneutically i cant infer either. But if the next lines reads

"he was taught and filled with the spirit of humility. The spirit of humility would rebuke and correct him in times of arrogance."

then we can infer that "the spirit of humility" is a personable being simply by its characteristics

if the next line instead read
"Youngsters these days can learn a thing or two from this mans disposition"
We can infer the opposite.

But its not always as clear cut because of parallel truths in regard to God (the cause of allot of error in the church). Because i could in fact be inferring that a spirit being is responsible for the mans disposition in which case both notions can be inferred but neither can be excluded.

This is the exegesis i come to in relation to the Holy Ghost its the power of God personified in his Spirit and looking at the acts of the apostles after Pentecost. The Holy Spirit spoken of in Acts is not an allegorical personification as the book of Acts is an historical account of the Acts of the apostles and not poetry. So to infer allegory from an historical account is very inaccurate.


Here are just a few scriptures mainly from Acts to consider about the Holy Spirit

Acts 5:29-32 (New International Version)

29Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than men! 30The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead—whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree. 31God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. 32We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."


Acts 13:4 (New International Version)

4The two of them, sent on their way by the Holy Spirit, went down to Seleucia and sailed from there to Cyprus.

Acts 15:28 (New International Version)

28It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements:


Acts 16:6 (New International Version)

6Paul and his companions traveled throughout the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word in the province of Asia.


Acts 20:23 (New International Version)

23I only know that in every city the Holy Spirit warns me that prison and hardships are facing me.

Acts 20:28 (New International Version)

28Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.[a] Be shepherds of the church of God,[b] which he bought with his own blood.

Acts 21:11 (New International Version)

11Coming over to us, he took Paul's belt, tied his own hands and feet with it and said, "The Holy Spirit says, 'In this way the Jews of Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand him over to the Gentiles.' "



1 Corinthians 6:19 (New International Version)

19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, WHO is in you, WHOM you have received from God? You are not your own;

**Temple of the holy spirit? why does and inanimate force need a temple?**




















































Psalm 51:9-13 (New International Version)

9 Hide your face from my sins
and blot out all my iniquity.

10 Create in me a pure heart, O God,
and renew a steadfast spirit within me.

11 Do not cast me from your presence
or take your Holy Spirit from me.

12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation
and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.

13 Then I will teach transgressors your ways,
and sinners will turn back to you.


 2010/8/25 12:13Profile
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

To original post:

It is heresy to deny the trinity. But that is not to say that all Christians understand the trinity. I had to study a great deal as a new Christian before I came to understand the Spirit (not that I am some expert). Very simply, the Holy Ghost is God. Not an expression of God, but God Himself.

Who raised Jesus from the dead? The Spirit. Who moved upon the face of the waters at the creation? The Spirit. Who was sent to testify to the churches? The Spirit. What person of the trinity lives in the believer? The Spirit.

So if someone said that the Spirit was just an expression of God, some questions to ask are:

-Why does the Bible say that the Spirit talks?

-Allows?

-Forbids?

-Searches?

Just as only a person can love, only a person can do these things. Like so many other things in the Scripture, only the Spirit can teach someone the things of the Spirit. Saul knew the law, but only the Spirit could teach Paul what it meant. I don't expect the unregenerate to understand. They must repent first. And even then, the way we are taught after we are saved is a mystery.


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2010/8/27 20:26Profile









 Re:

It will be reiterated, the trinity concept was created through Roman Catholicism after the onset of the third century.

i will be the first to tell you that the Holy Spirit is, as an active and funtional part of my life.

It's just that the Holy Spirit is not as Roman Catholicism made Him out to be.

The Holy Spirit is the presence of the Lord and Christ.

Jesus is united with the Father, and so through their union, the Holy Spirit is seen as Jesus Christ and the Father in Him.

It is heresy to say that the Holy Spirit is something other than Christ or the Lord, whom Jesus is God's representation of on earth.

How's that?

Rainman, it's thought that you misunderstand me perhaps.


Salom Shabbat,
g

 2010/8/28 9:49









 Re:

I always loved the statement:

"To deny the Trinity is heresy..but it's a mystery that you can't really understand nor can I fully explain. In other words, if you don't believe what I can't fully explain you are going to hell.

I challenge anyone to go through the book of Acts, the best record of absolutely true apostolic preaching we have, and find an instance where the trinity is preached as a doctrine that must be received to be "truly saved". And, in looking at all the sermons where Christ is preached to both Jew and Gentile, I also challenge you to find any instance where Jesus is preached as something other than either "God's Son" or the "Son of Man".

 2010/8/28 10:54





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