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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : Calvinism: Myth or truth by Chris Matthews

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hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

I always liked the "picture" of a broad road all men travel forth on, and along this way a "narrow" road shows up on the side, a large sign that says "anyone who will/thirsts may enter. And a few do enter this narrow road, at the end of this narrow road is a small gate with a sign above entering this gate is a free gift and anyone may receive it, when you have entered it you turn around and on this other side there is also a sign above that reads "you where chosen to enter before time"

so i see the "duality" of truths scripture speaks of, Spurgeon puts it best i think:

The system of truth revealed in the Scriptures is not simply one straight line, but two; and no man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once. For instance, I read in one book of the Bible, "The Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Yet I am taught, in another part of the same inspired Word, that "it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." I see, in one place, God in providence presiding over all, and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions, in a great measure, to his own free will. Now if I were to declare that man was so free to act that there was no control of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to atheism; and if, on the other hand, I should declare that God so overrules all things that man is not free enough to be responsible, I should be driven at once into antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one part of the Bible that everything is foreordained, that is true; and if I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other. I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.


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CHRISTIAN

 2010/8/23 6:21Profile
jimp
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Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi,i walked through a door the other day and as i came in the door said enter and after i entered i looked up and the sign said exit.it just depended on which way you approached it from for what it was. my hebrews professor in a previous century asked if a traffic signal could be red and green at the same time and i said no and he said that all lights are always red and green at the same time also depending on ones approach...to argue things that seem to contradict in the bible is to admit that we are proud and we should just admit our stance and admit we do not know how God is bringing these things about . praise God for these posts that have been civil and wonderfully prepared...jimp

 2010/8/23 6:57Profile
Koheleth
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Joined: 2005/11/10
Posts: 530
NC

 Re:

Quote:
But I guess as long as we keep it respectful, its ok to debate. I mean as long as one party does not make blanket statements of heresy toward the other. As long as one party does not tell the other that they have a false gospel merely on the ground that they are either Arminian or Calvinist. For that kind of division is pitiful to say the least.



So if someone is in heresy, we are not allowed to say so but must "keep it respectful"? I think we can do both, since we are always to be respectful, but to forbid pointing out wrong views of Scripture is simply . . . wrong. Jesus and the apostles did so all the time and Paul (to Timothy) and Jesus (to the Pharisees) give us undeniably clear examples of correcting those in error. And yes, those two men caused quite unpleasant divisions and both were killed for it.

 2010/8/23 7:26Profile
Koheleth
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Joined: 2005/11/10
Posts: 530
NC

 Re:

Quote:
all lights are always red and green at the same time also depending on ones approach



All views are correct?

 2010/8/23 7:28Profile
RainMan
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Joined: 2010/4/21
Posts: 227


 Re: koheleth

Quote:
all lights are always red and green at the same time also depending on ones approach



I can see where you are coming from and i think often error is tolerated. But i would advise that we should let the sanctifying word of God remove our own imperfections before we admonish the heresy of others as Jesus put it "Remove the log of wood form thou own eye so that thou may see clearly to remove the speck of dust form thy brothers eye"

I used to be so quick to look at the frailty of others doctrine and label everything as heresy. But without us first being purified ourselves we are not really in a position to see or address the inadequacies of others. The only opinion that matters is that of Jesus. Jesus said he had much more to say and teach but he knew until the disciples had received the spirit on the day of pentecost they would just not be able to fully fathom the deeper things of God.



Jude said this

17 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." 19These are the men who divide you, who follow mere [natural instincts] and do not have the Spirit.
20 But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. 21 Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.


Jude implies that that the divider where men of instinct motivated by natural instincts / ungodly lusts

These lust/covetousness/desire are many fold from materialism to intellectualism men are led astray by their own desire("by their own lusts are men enticed" -James 1:14 )

Its the same today we have men who teach from their own imagination and carnal minds and not from the inspiration of the Holy spirit. A few months ago i was given a book on romans from a senior pastor to read. After a few pages i could already see that the authors exegesis was more of an eisegesis(he was reading his own thoughts and ideas into text). Reading the book i could see he was so dearly in love with Christ and passionate about Christ. but the fact remains that not all his exegesis were sound. so i took from what was scripturally accurate and what was simply an eisegesis i discarded. The fact that his book contained allot of eisegesis didnt make him automatically a heretic. The sad thing is that many people will base their understnading of the book of Romans on this mans book and not on study that they did for themselves led by the spirit. The spirit is the spirit of truth and he leads us to truth not to more questions. And if he so chosing leads us to questions its because he wants to show us the answer. remember "he will lead us to all truth"

 2010/8/23 8:03Profile
rnieman
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Joined: 2008/10/24
Posts: 146


 Re:

Here is an excellent resource about this debate.




Russ

 2010/8/23 8:12Profile
RainMan
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Joined: 2010/4/21
Posts: 227


 Re: rnieman

sorry rnieman seems like someone beat you to the name already

 2010/8/23 8:21Profile
rnieman
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Joined: 2008/10/24
Posts: 146


 Re:

Savannah was your response "23 Questions on Calvinism vs. Arminianism by Greg G." actually something Greg put together or is this your response to Greg? Russ

 2010/8/23 8:59Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Koheleth wrote:

Quote:

So if someone is in heresy, we are not allowed to say so but must "keep it respectful"? I think we can do both, since we are always to be respectful, but to forbid pointing out wrong views of Scripture is simply . . . wrong. Jesus and the apostles did so all the time and Paul (to Timothy) and Jesus (to the Pharisees) give us undeniably clear examples of correcting those in error. And yes, those two men caused quite unpleasant divisions and both were killed for it.



Koheleth, in my statement "merely on the grounds that they are either Arminian or Calvinist" I was trying to communicate what kind of division I meant. If you are Calvinist, will you say that all who believe man has a free will in salvation are heretics and have a false gospel? If you are Arminian, will you say all who deny man's free will in salvation are heretics and have a false gospel? That's the kind of division I meant. Not divisions based on essential Christian doctrine, such as the deity of Christ, salvation by grace alone throne faith alone in Christ alone, the virgin birth, the resurrection, etc. When it comes to those essentials there can be no compromise but this is not one those issues. And if you say it is I feel sorry for you. I hope that explains things a bit.


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Oracio

 2010/8/23 9:37Profile
TimmyJoe
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Joined: 2007/6/19
Posts: 120
Panama City, FL

 Re:

sscott said,

Quote:
Isn't this one of those divisive topics that you've told others not to discuss?



He's not discussing it, he just posted an article for everyone to read.

Rainman said,

Quote:
OBSERVE and Search out what the will of God is according to his word and DO those things he wills us to do then beloved .... and only then...



Amen brother!

"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!" Romans 11:33

I grew the most in my christian walk when I quit trying to figure how and why God does things and just started obeying what He told me to do!

"LORD, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me." Psalm 131:1

Calvinist's cannot say that God sincerely wants all men to be saved when He makes it clear from scripture that He does, and Arminian's cannot explain how God sovereignly works out all things as He pleases if we have free will.

Well I can't explain it either, so I'm no help here, but I like the words of this old hymn.

"Trust and obey, for there's no other way
to be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey."

edit: punctuation

 2010/8/24 18:02Profile





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