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Joined: 2002/12/11
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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

 Calvinism: Myth or truth by Chris Matthews

Is Calvinism true doctrine or false?

To answer this question we rest on the Bible alone to expose the truth.

Limited atonement- this is the Calvinist belief that Christ died only for certain ones and not for the whole world.

1. Does God only love certain people and not everyone?

Answer: NO, He loves everyone

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; (4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

John 1:6-12 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. (7) The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. (8) He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. (9) That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (10) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. (11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not. (12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 3:15-16 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 10:9-13 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (11) For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. (12) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. (13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Two verses that the Calvinist brings up to refute this:

1. Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

-Jacob was the seed that Christ was to come through and the reference is to nations. God here is saying that he preferred the line of Jacob over Esau. We see in Luke 14:25-27 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, (26) If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. (27) And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. That the word hate must have a little different direction in its meaning than the way that we would use it today. Jesus admonishes us to honor our parents in other passages so if this passage meant that we were to truly hate our parents this would be a contradiction. According to the Word he is speaking of putting Christ first or preferring him over even your own family. This also applies to the passage about Jacob and Esau. As God did prefer Jacob’s line over Esau’s line.

2. Exodus 7:13-14 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. (14) And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go. The Calvinist says that this proves that God has just arbitrarily decided to harden some men’s hearts that they cannot be saved ever. If they would take time to read the Bible they would see that pharaoh had hardened his own heart and then God hardened Pharaoh’s heart. There is the teaching in the Bible that man can reach a point in his life that God will no longer tarry with a man.

Unconditional election-The calvanist belief that god simply chooses whom he will save and whom he will not.

Irresistible grace- The calvanist belief that you will be saved if you are going to be saved that if God chooses to exibit his grace you cqan not help butget saved.

2. Is man able to make a decision for or against God?

The answer is yes

Romans 10:3-17 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. (4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. (5) For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. (6) But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) (7) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) (8) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; (9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (11) For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. (12) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. (13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? (15) And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! (16) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 26:28-29 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian. (29) And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.

3. Various verses answered?

Romans 8:28-34 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. (29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (31) What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? (32) He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? (33) Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. (34) Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

-I have put the words in bold that the Calvinists love to center on and also the beginning of verse 32 which says that Christ died for us all. Romans 8 is considered to be the fringe benefits of the Christian. By reading the chapter we can see that he is making reference to those whom were already saved. What he is saying here that those that are saved are predestined to be justified, glorified and conformed to his image.

Ephesians 1:1-13 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: (2) Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. (3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: (4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (6) To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. (7) In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; (8) Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; (9) Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: (10) That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (12) That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,

-once again this according to verse one is to those that are already saved and because of that salvation they have been adopted as sons.

1 Peter 1:18-20 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; (19) But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: (20) Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

-this verse exposes that Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world that he would die for all men’s sin. This means that before sin existed God in his omniscience that a way of salvation would be needed and had a plan to redeem mankind from sin.

SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2010/8/22 19:09Profile

Joined: 2007/6/27
Posts: 1573
Omaha, NE

 Re: Calvinism: Myth or truth by Chris Matthews

The scriptures that declare the saving
grace of GOD by the merits of the work
on the cross through HIS Only Begotten
Son are promised to ALL who believe!!

Martin G. Smith

 2010/8/22 20:26Profile


Isn't this one of those divisive topics that you've told others not to discuss?

 2010/8/22 21:12

Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752


I think that all "isms" are a myth.


 2010/8/22 23:32Profile

Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2067

 Re: Romanism = ? as E=MC²

The pious mind does not devise for itself any kind of God, but looks alone to the one true God; nor does it feign for Him any character it pleases, but is contented to have Him in the character in which He manifests Himself. — John Calvin

"The Roman Catholic Council of Trent, The Sixth Session: Justification", states:

Canon IV. If any one saith, that man's free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, no-wise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema.

Canon V. If any one saith, that, since Adam's sin, the free will of man is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing with only a name, yea a name without a reality, a figment, in fine, introduced into the Church by Satan; let him be anathema.

23 Questions on Calvinism vs. Arminianism by Greg G.

1. Was your will free from Satan's control, yes or no?

"So ought not this woman...whom Satan has bound...for 18 years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?" (Lk. 13:16)

"the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will." (2 Tim. 2:26)

2. Was your will free from sin's control, yes or no?

"His own iniquities entrap the wicked man, & he is caught in the cords of his sin." (Pr. 5:22)

"whoever commits sin is a slave of sin" (Jn. 8:34)

"For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity." (Acts 8:23)

"you were slaves of sin" (Rom. 6:17)

"For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, slaving various lusts and pleasures" (Tit. 3:3)

"they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage." (2 Pet. 2:19)

3. Is God sovereign & in control over humans' wills including yours, no or yes?

"you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive." (Gen. 50:20)

"But I will harden his (Pharaoh's) heart, so that he will not let the people go." (Ex. 4:21)

"And the Lord had given the people favor in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they granted them what they requested. Thus they plundered the Egyptians." (Ex. 12:36)

"And I indeed will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them. So I will gain honor over Pharaoh and over all his army, his chariots, and his horsemen." (Ex. 14:17)

"But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass through, for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into your hand" (Deut. 2:30)

"For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them" (Josh. 11:20)

"God sent a spirit of ill will between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech" (Jud. 9:23)

"the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, 'Go, number Israel and Judah.'" (2 Sam. 24:1)

"The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets" (1 Kings 22:23)

"that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom" (Ezra 1:1-3)

"the Lord made them joyful, and turned the heart of the king of Assyria toward them, to strengthen their hands in the work of the house of God" (Ezra 6:22)

"He turned their heart to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants." (Ps. 105:25)

"A man's heart (will) plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps." (Pr. 16:9)

"The king's heart (will) is in the hand of the LORD...He turns it wherever He wishes. (Pr. 21:1)

"Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger...I will send him against an ungodly nation, and against the people of My wrath I will give him charge...Yet he does not mean so, nor does his heart think so" (Is. 10:5-7)

"For the Lord of hosts has purposed, and who will annul it? His hand is stretched out, and who will turn it back?" (Is. 14:27)

"Who says of Cyrus, 'He is My shepherd, and he shall perform all My pleasure'" (Is. 44:28)

"I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me forever" (Jer. 32:39)

"I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me." (Jer. 32:40)

"I will give you a new heart (will) and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart (will) of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them." (Ezek. 36:26-27)

"For His dominion is and everlasting dominion, and His kingdom is from generation to generation. All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand or say to Him, "What have you done?" (Dan. 4:34-35)

"For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done." (Acts 4:27-28)

"And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose." (Rom. 8:28)

"Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" (Rom. 9:19)

"But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills." (1 Cor. 12:11)

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Phil. 2:13)

"Instead you ought to say, 'If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that.'" (Jas. 4:15)

"For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled." (Rev. 17:17)

God Is in Control of ALL Things,
and Sovereign Over ALL Things

Wow! Could God possibly make it any clearer that He controls our wills? What we're saying is: God is in control (of ALL things, even salvation.) He is sovereign (over ALL things, even salvation.) Most Christians acknowledge He's in control only in a general, vague sense. But, He tells us He's in control of every minute detail of His universe, even your decisions, and the number of hairs on your head.

In the Fall, Did Adam & His Offspring Lose
Their Desire and Ability to Come to Christ?

4. After Adam and Eve sinned, did they move toward God, or hide from Him?

"Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God" (Gen. 3:8)

5. Did Adam initiate contact with God, or did God initiate contact with Adam?

"Then the Lord God called to Adam and said to him, 'Where are you?'" (Gen. 3:9)

6. As a fallen sinner, were you just spiritually sick, or spiritually dead?

"for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." (Gen. 2:17)

"you...who were dead in trespasses and sins...even when you were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ" (Eph. 2:1, 5)

"And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive" (Col. 2:13)

The spiritually dead can't raise themselves. They must be raised by God.

7. Could you spiritually see the gospel, or were you spiritually blind?

"yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive & eyes to see & ears to hear" (Deut. 29:4)

"I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand...For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them." (Mt. 13:13-15)

"Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: 'He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them.'" (Jn. 12:38-40)

"to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins" (Acts 26:18)

"there is none who understands" (Rom. 3:11)

"But their minds were blinded." (2 Cor. 3:14)

"But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them." (2 Cor. 4:3-4)

The blind can't see, until God first gives them sight.

8. Could you spiritually hear the gospel, or were you spiritually deaf?

"yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive & eyes to see & ears to hear" (Deut. 29:4)

"I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand...For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them." (Mt. 13:13-15)

9. When you were spiritually dead, blind, & deaf, did you desire & seek God, yes or no?

"Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." (Gen. 6:5)

"men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil." (Jn. 3:19)

"For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light" (Jn. 3:20)

"haters of God" (Rom. 1:30)

"There is none who seeks after God." (Rom. 3:11)

"I was found by those who did not seek Me; I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me." (Rom. 10:20)

10. Are unbelievers not sheep because they don't believe, or do they not believe because they're not sheep?

"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep." (Jn. 10:26)

11. When you were spiritually dead, deaf & blind, were you born again by your will, or God's will?

"who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (Jn. 1:13)

"it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy." (Rom. 9:16)

"of His own will He brought us forth (birthed us) by the word of truth" (Jas. 1:18)

How much of a part did you have in willing your own physical conception? None! Your parents conceived you by their own wills. As it is with physical birth, so it is with spiritual birth. You didn't ask to be birthed. The Father birthed you.

Then, the question arises, "If fallen, dead, deaf, blind sinners can't come to Christ, then how do they come to Christ?" Does God give the new birth because they believed, or so that they can believe? In other words, is faith the cause of the new birth, or is the new birth the cause of faith?

To believe that fallen, dead, deaf, blind sinners repented and believed to be born again is like getting the cart before the horse. Logically, they must have first been spiritually born again, before they could repent and believe in Christ.

Well, whether faith or the new birth comes first is irrelevant - because God gives not only the new birth, but also faith and repentance, so He gets all the credit, as you'll see below...

12. Did God predestine your adoption & inheritance according to your will, or His will?

"He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world...having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will" (Eph. 1:4-5)

"In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will" (Eph. 1:11)

13. Did God choose you because you would believe, or so that you would believe?

"God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth" (2 Thes. 2:13)

14. Whose choice made the ultimate difference, the apostles' choice, or God's choice?

"You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit" (Jn. 15:16)

15. Whose will made Paul an apostle, his own will, or God's will?

"Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God" (1 Cor. 1:1)

16. Did God call you according to your purpose (will,) or His purpose?

"And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom (not "what") He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son" (Rom. 8:28-29)

"who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began" (2 Tim. 1:9)

17. Who opened your heart, you or God?

"He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures." (Lk. 24:45)

"The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul" (Acts 16:14)

18. How many of the lost does God call/draw, all or only some?

"Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him." (Mt. 11:27)

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him" (Jn. 6:44)

"Moreover whom He predestined, these he also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."(Rom. 8:30)

19. How many of those whom God calls/draws respond, some or all?

"And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48)

"whom He called, these He also justified" (Rom. 8:30)

"concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (Rom. 11:28-29)

20. Who did your repentance come from, you or God?

"Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins." (Acts 5: 31)

"God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life." (Acts 11:18)

"those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance so that they may know the truth" (2 Tim. 2:25-26)

21. Who did your faith come from, you or God?

"...those who had believed through grace" (Acts 18:27)

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast" (Eph. 2:8)

"For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer..." (Phil. 1:29)

"God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth" (2 Thes. 2:13)

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights" (Jas. 1:17)

"looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith..." (Heb. 12:2)

"to those who have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God" (2 Pet. 1:1)

22. Who made the difference in your decision for Christ, the evangelist or God?

"I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase." (1 Cor. 3:6-7)

23. Who made the difference in your decision for Christ, you or God?

"that no flesh should glory in his presence. But of Him you are in Christ Jesus...that as is written, 'He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.'" (1 Cor. 1:29-31)

"For who makes you differ? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it? (1 Cor. 4:7)

"But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10)

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." (Eph. 2:8-9)

 2010/8/23 0:12Profile

Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re: Calvinism: Myth or truth by Chris Matthews

As long as the SI forum has been up, I wonder how many Calvinism vs Arminianism debates there have been. I'm assuming a whole lot. But I guess as long as we keep it respectful, its ok to debate. I mean as long as one party does not make blanket statements of heresy toward the other. As long as one party does not tell the other that they have a false gospel merely on the ground that they are either Arminian or Calvinist. For that kind of division is pitiful to say the least.


 2010/8/23 1:14Profile

Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860


In light of 2 Timothy 2:23 I will say that I have no strong foundation on which I believe. For me however I seek to understand both side the story so if there is a profitable discussion on Calvinism vs Arminianism then I would appreciated it.

I do see something odd with Arminianism that does seem kind of strange maybe I am a hybrid of the two if that is possible but today my head pastor said that God has planned your life and made you the way He wants you. That God knows everything about past, present, and future. Dispite free will wouldn't God then know who has and will accept His Free Grace? Just a thought I had when I heard this.

Matthew Guldner

 2010/8/23 1:30Profile

Joined: 2004/5/17
Posts: 235



Thanks for the Scripture quotations, I'm sure that took a lot of time. Hopefully they will be read and prayed over.


The idea you are considering is also know as "middle knowledge" and was made popular (if you will) during the counter-reformation of the Roman Catholics. The idea fails from a Scpritural standpoint because we are all dead in our tresspasses and sins until we are made alive in Christ, that is to say regenerated (see Matthew 8:22 and Ephesians 2:1-10). Thus, if God were to look down the corridor of time to see who will "accept" Him, all He would see was a unamimous rejection of His grace by the dead. What other response can a dead man make?

Consider Jesus' words to Nicodemus, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." We know from the book of Hebrews that "faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." (11:1) According to Jesus, for a person to see the kingdom of God (by faith) he must first be born again. God must begin the new work so that He can complete it. (Philippians 1:6, Hebrews 12:2, Revelation 22:13)

What was Lazarus doing (and going to continue doing) until called forth by our Lord?

Btw, it's good to see that you are thinking! :)

Grace and peace,


 2010/8/23 5:19Profile

Joined: 2010/4/21
Posts: 227


"For we know in part" as the bible says

Sometimes we can become so engrossed in the details and get hung up on intellectual nuances that we miss the simple truths.

Like Christ said

John 8:30-32 (King James Version)
"30 As he spake these words, many believed on him. 31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in MY WORD, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

i wonder how many doctrines have been started because we followed the misinterpreted teachings of men.

Even paul said it was carnal (sar-kee-kos') to do so.

1 Corinthians 3:4 (King James Version)

4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not (sar-kee-kos') carnal?

pertaining to flesh, that is, (by extension) bodily, temporal, or (by implication) animal, unregenerate: - carnal, fleshly.

sar-kee-kos' is the opposite of the word phyoo-mat-ik-os' (Spiritual) that pauls uses allot in his doctrine. When paul talked about the Spiritual it wasnt just a flippant theological reference to an ideology.

The argument is a carnal once. Freewill and sovereignty are parallel truths that even Paul was not able to reconcile. Allot of people are misled by Romans 9 as it is often not "rightly divided"

Romans 9:18-21 (New International Version)

18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[a] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

he follows his arguments with WHAT IF GOD denoting the fact that everything that followed immediately after were his own human arguments and i dont think he expected people to base entire belief systems on almost rhetorical arguments he was making. I think Romans 9 highlights the fact that these truths are not readily reconciled by human minds.

We are called to be followers of Christ and not Calvin, the puritans or creflo dollar or benny hinn.

The doctrine of Christ is very liberating. If one was to put all the isms aside and just read every single word spoken by Christ without a predetermined bias we would see the liberating truth of our saviors words in thier full Glory. I dont think its the place of any man to re-interpret what they think Christ meant and start a new doctrine. The job of interpreting the word of God belongs to the holy spirit not calvin. The moment we allow our carnal minds to interpret the word its a slippery slope.

Christ used the paradigm of a shepherd and his sheep to explain the sovereign and provident nature of God in the new testament.

In ezekiel 34 he talks about judgment bewteen sheep as they "muddied" the waters and butted the weaker ones. This alludes to us having a personal responsibility for our own actions.

As paul says and i paraphrase
if he has mercy on who he has mercy or predetermines some to be saved and hardens who he hardens predetermines some to reject him... WHY DOES HE YET JUDGE US?


Conclusion: I see Free will and sovereignty as parallel truths whose intersection is in eternity. So when i get to heaven ill ask the lord to explain it to my feeble mind. Calvin was a mere man like all of us. My admiration is for the potter and not the pottery. If we are broken before him he can form us into worthy vessels of honor like the men of god of old.

true discipleship is following the words of Christ and living them out as they live in us. Arguing over arminianism vs Calvinism is futile. If you truely follow jesus you wont be either

thats my 2pc

 2010/8/23 6:06Profile

Joined: 2010/4/21
Posts: 227


In a nutshell find every word, exhortation or commandment ever made by Christ and hide it in your heart.

God measures our love by our obedience to his word. It only gets complicated if our carnal minds allow it to.

OBSERVE and Search out what the will of God is according to his word and DO those things he wills us to do then beloved .... and only then...

maybe i am stereo typing but carnal minded Christians often struggle with the divine nature and power of God. Then an ism is invented to cover up the fact the power of God is not behind such doctrine. The power of God cannot be replaced with academic theological prowess and neither can we exalt the experiences of the power of God and ignore the fact we must be soundly grounded in the word of God. But the devil is a liar..

 2010/8/23 6:18Profile

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