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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Salvation of All by Andrew Murray

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Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Mattie, the Scriptures I pointed out were not intended to prove the biblical doctrine of eternal torment. They were mainly intended to show both Christ and the apostles warned Jews and Gentiles to flee from the wrath to come and so should we.
As to the Doctine of eternal punishment, there are numerous passages that clearly affirm and warn about it. It is an essential Christian doctrine, which you must believe as a true Christian, like the Deity of Jesus Christ. Otherwise you allign yourself with a damnable heresy.

I do not wish to get into a lengthy heated debate here with you to prove this doctrine. I am sure you know of many of the passages which come to mind, since you seem to intellectually know much of Scripture. I would simply urge you to re-consider your views on this before it is too late.
Having stated all that, if you are sincerely seeking to know whether or not eternal punishment is taught in Scripture, I would be willing to share some of the clear passages which teach it, for your prayerful consideration.

Regarding the issue of God's love and justice, a few words I would share here. When men state that the idea of God's great love for sinners and His justice in executing eternal punishment are a contradiction, it shows that they reject the truth of the holiness of God as taught in Scripture. Scripture makes it very clear that God's infinite holiness demands an infinite punishment for sin. He is not like you and I in His infinite holiness(Psalm 50:21; Hab.1:13)). Sin is something He absolutely detests beyond our comprehension(We see the serious nature of it in the death of His own Son). When men sin, they do not sin against men only, but against an infinitely holy God, and herein lies the problem; men assume that God must be like them in their tolerance for sin. But they are seriously mistaken to try to bring Him down to their level of tolerance for sin. He is not like the tolerant, pagan, false gods or idols of this world. He must and will punish sin with an eternal punishment.


_________________
Oracio

 2010/8/12 15:38Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

I decided to post some of the Scripture references which teach clearly the eternal duration of hell, for the prayerful consideration of those who are unsure on this:

Mt. 18:8 "… thrown into eternal fire."

Mk 9:43 "…fire never goes out."

Mk 9:48 "…worm never dies and the fire is not quenched."

Is. 33:14 "… with everlasting burning."

Luke 3:17 "… with unquenchable fire."

Mt. 3:12 "… with unquenchable fire."

Heb. 6:2 "… the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment."

Jude 7 The people of Sodom and Gomorrah serve as an example of those who suffer the "punishment of eternal fires."

Dan. 12:2 "… some to everlasting life, other to shame and everlasting contempt."


2 Th. 1:9 "…they will be punished with everlasting destruction."

Gal. 1:8 If someone preaches another gospel, he is to be "eternally condemned."

Is. 66:24 Those that rebelled against God, "Their worm will not die, nor will the fire be quenched."

Rev. 14:10-11 "And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever"

Is. 34:8-10 "Lord has a day of vengeance … it will not be quenched night or day. Its smoke will rise forever."

Mt 25:41 "… eternal fires prepared for the devil and his angels."

Mt. 25:46 speaking of unbelievers..."They will go away to eternal punishment."

Jude 6 The angels will be bound with "everlasting chains."

Rev. 20:10 The devil, beast, and false prophet being tormented "forever and ever."


_________________
Oracio

 2010/8/12 17:03Profile
TimmyJoe
Member



Joined: 2007/6/19
Posts: 120
Panama City, FL

 Re:

Mattie said,

Quote:
Besides, there are lots of people in the West (again, not Greek scholars... ordinary folk) that are studying this and seeing this. So... it's not hidden.



Yes that is true, and it is very sad! Many in the imergent church (Rob Bell, Brian Mclaren, etc..) are teaching these doctrines in America. But I believe the scriptures Oracio posted are plenty to show that, SoA or universalism or whatever you want to call it, is a great and dangerous error!!!

I believe it was Rob Bell that said, "the world is already reconciled to God, they just don't know it yet."

It is frightening that people sincerely believe this even though scripture warns Mark 9:43 " it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that NEVER shall be quenched:"(emphasis mine)

This is NOT a game!!! God desires all men to be saved, but He will punish those who do not accept that salvation!!! He has provided a way of reconciliation, only through Christ, and has given US the ministry of reconciliation!(2Cor.5:18)

If men were already reconciled why would Paul say, "I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me-the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace."(Acts20:24)

Let us be ever so willing to suffer all things so that some might be saved!

With love,
Timmyjoe



 2010/8/12 17:51Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Mattie wrote:

Quote:
How do you know that the apostles wrote to believers AND unbelievers alike? Most the epistles are addressed to the saints, the faithful, the church, etc. What would cause you to think otherwise?



One clear example is in Romans 2(the whole chapter). Paul is clearly warning unconverted Jews there. The writers of the epistles were well aware of the fact that both converted and unconverted people would be hearing those letters read, even though they were mainly addressed to Christians. That is why there are numerous warnings about the severity of God's eternal judment upon the wicked. This is throughout the Word of God. And this has to be part of the message we proclaim to a lost and dying world. We must not water down these essential truths in order to tickle ears that reject those truths. We must lift up our voice like a trumpet in these last days and spare not(Isa.58:1). These truths must be tempered with God's love and compassion while we proclaim them, but they must be proclaimed nonetheless. And we must also proclaim the good news of Christ crucified and ressurected along with urging men to repent and trust in Christ while there is time. We must speak the truth in love, and preach the whole counsel of God.


_________________
Oracio

 2010/8/12 18:13Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Besides, there are lots of people in the West (again, not Greek scholars... ordinary folk) that are studying this and seeing this. So... it's not hidden.



Unfortunately most of the heresies start here in the West and then make their way around the world.

 2010/8/12 23:13









 Re:

...and everybody lived happily ever after is the stuff of fairytales.

To say that "there are no lasting consequences to my actions" is to say " i am decieved."




Don't delude yourselves: no one makes a fool of God! A person reaps what he sows."
Gal. 6.7 (CJB)

It is appointed unto man once to die and after that the judgement.
Heb. 9.27

He who sows to the flesh reaps corruption, and he who sows to the Spirit eternal life.
Gal. 6.8


Those who are justified by God walk faithfully towards Him in Jesus Christ.




For without faith it is impossible to please God.
(see Heb. 11.6)

Mattie, you really think that those who do not please God will hear, "ok, now i know you have made a few mistakes, but so has everyone else. So come join everybody together for storytime, milk and cookies, and then we can all lie down and take a nap."

Quit giving man's opinion precedence over the scriptures.

Whose right, man or God?

He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev. 21.7-8


And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Is. 66.23-24


The judgement of damnation into eternal hellfire is real.
The second death is real.
The results are permanent.

It's not fear of punishment that brings us to God.

Jesus says "everybody will be salted with fire," for God is a consuming fire; but whatever is not of Jesus in you will perish.


Love, Hope, and Faith,
gregg

...I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
Acts 20:31-32

edited: grammar

 2010/8/13 0:09





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