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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Salvation of All by Andrew Murray

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hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
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 Re:

excerpt from origens writings:


The Saviour also saying, "I say unto you, Resist not evil;"[9] and, "Whoever shall be angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment;"[10] and, "Whosoever shall look upon a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart;"[12] and in issuing certain other commands,--conveys no other meaning than this, that it is in our own power to observe what is commanded. And therefore we are rightly rendered liable to condemnation if we transgress those commandments which we are able to keep. And hence He Himself also declares: "Every one who hears my words, and doeth them, I will show to whom he is like: he is like a wise man who built his house upon a rock," etc.[1] So also the declaration: "Whoso heareth these things, and doeth them not, is like a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand," etc.[3] Even the words addressed to those who are on His right hand, "Come unto Me, all ye blessed of My Father," etc.; "for I was an hungered, and ye gave Me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave Me drink,"[5] manifestly show that it depended upon themselves, that either these should be deserving of praise for doing what was commanded and receiving what was promised, or those deserving of censure who either heard or received the contrary, and to whom it was said, "Depart, ye cursed, into everlasting fire (Mt. 25:34, etc.)" Let us observe also, that the Apostle Paul addresses us as having power over our own will, and as possessing in ourselves the causes either of our salvation or of our ruin: "Dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and of His patience, and of His long-suffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But, according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou art treasuring up for thyself wrath on the day of judgment and of the revelation of the just judgment of God, who will render to every one according to his work: to those who by patient continuance in well-doing seek for glory and immortality, eternal life;[8] while to those who are contentious, and believe not the truth, but who believe iniquity, anger, indignation, tribulation, and distress, on every soul of man that worketh evil, on the Jew first, and (afterwards) on the Greek; but glory, and honour, and peace to every one that doeth good, to the Jew first, and (afterwards) to the Greek."[11] You will find also innumerable other passages in holy Scripture, which manifestly show that we possess freedom of will. Otherwise there would be a contrariety in commandments being given us, by observing which we may be saved, or by transgressing which we may be condemned, if the power of keeping them were not implanted in us (ANF, Vol. 4, p. 306).


Whether it is possible for the apostle to contradict himself? And if this cannot be imagined of an apostle, how shall he appear, according to them, to be just in blaming those who committed fornication in Corinth, or those who sinned, and did not repent of their unchastity, and fornication, and uncleanness, which they had committed? How, also, does he greatly praise those who acted rightly, like the house of Onesiphorus, saying, "The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain: but, when he had come to Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me. The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day."[5] Now it is not consistent with apostolic gravity to blame him who is worthy of blame, i.e., who has sinned, and greatly to praise him who is deserving of praise for his good works; and again, as if it were in no one's power to do any good or evil, to say that it was the Creator's doing that every one should act virtuously or wickedly, seeing He makes one vessel to honour, and another to dishonour. And how can he add that statement, "We must all stand before the judgment-seat of Christ, that every one of us may receive in his body, according to what he hath done, whether it be good or bad? "[6] For what reward of good will be conferred on him who could not commit evil, being formed by the Creator to that very end? or what punishment will deservedly be inflicted on him who was unable to do good in consequence of the creative act of his Maker?[1] Then, again, how is not this opposed to that other declaration elsewhere, that "in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and of earth, and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the Master's use, prepared unto every good work."[4] He, accordingly, who purges himself, is made a vessel unto honour, while he who has disdained to cleanse himself from his impurity is made a vessel unto dishonour. From such declarations, in my opinion, the cause of our actions can in no degree be referred to the Creator. For God the Creator makes a certain vessel unto honour, and other vessels to dishonour; but that vessel which has cleansed itself from all impurity He makes a vessel unto honour, while that which has stained itself with the filth of vice He makes a vessel unto dishonour. The conclusion from which, accordingly, is this, that the cause of each one's actions is a pre-existing one; and then every one, according to his deserts, is made by God either a vessel unto honour or dishonour. Therefore every individual vessel has furnished to its Creator out of itself the causes and occasions of its being formed by Him to be either a vessel unto honour or one unto dishonour(ANF, Vol. 4, p. 324).


Origen is not scripture, interesting reading it is anyhow,but I think one needs to come to terms and peace within ones own heart about Scripture that speak of gods will, and his sovereignty, and that scripture does seem to convey most humans will be lost despite Gods love to them and his will for them to be saved. I love my children, i love them even when they are disobedient and do their own will that may be in contradiction to mine, it does not effect my will for them despite what they do.

Scripture says his will is for all to be saved, and he made a way for them to be, and in his sovereignty he made it such we play a part of accepting his perfect free gift of salvation or trample his sons blood under our feet.

also we can say Gods will is we should never sin or fall, even it is our duty to walk as Christ walked, and yet we often fail, but it is still his will and he is still able to use us and move us to be in His will.

its deep things not so easy to wrap your finite mind around always.


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CHRISTIAN

 2010/8/12 0:45Profile
Lysa
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Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3421
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: Mattie



Mattie wrote:

Fear of endless torment has never been and should never be a motive to lead people to Christ.

---------------

I do not use endless torment as a motive to lead people to Christ either; never have, never will, thank you Jesus!

So how do you, Mattie, lead people to Christ when you witness to them?


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Lisa

 2010/8/12 7:52Profile
Mattie
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Joined: 2004/7/23
Posts: 210


 Re:

I have no set way or rule as to how I'd lead others to Christ.

Some conversations might lead to us having a longer talk about the gospel, and other conversations may be me saying something very briefly. Some people I say nothing at all.

However the Holy Spirit leads each conversation. It's always unique and based upon where the individual is.

Hope that answers your question.

 2010/8/12 8:15Profile
whyme
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Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

I'm pretty amazed at some of the comments in this post. In Hebrews, the writer warns the recipients very clearly to hold onto their faith until the end or face uspeakable punishment. Yet somehow, warning the unbeliever is wrong either as a motive for sharing the Gospel or as one for believing in it. Why is "fleeing the wrath to come" not a motive for turning from sin to God and faith and Jesus Christ? Paul in the book of Romans goes to great lengths in describing the future of Gentiles and JEws who come short of God's glory and their horrible end and then shows man the salvation from that is from God. Salvation and a Savior make no sense without an understanding of Hell.

 2010/8/12 10:13Profile
Mattie
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Joined: 2004/7/23
Posts: 210


 Re:

In Hebrews when the writer talks about the coming punishment He is speaking to Jews straying from the faith they already possessed (Heb 6:1-2 and Heb 10:24-28) makes that pretty clear. So whoever the writer is... he's speaking to believers.

When John the Baptist spoke of the 'wrath to come', again He is speaking to the children of Israel, a people who had the Law and the Prophets.

Paul in Romans, again, is speaking to believers.

I am not diminishing the warnings of a coming judgment. I believe in that.

But look at Jesus speaking to the woman caught in adultery saying 'I no longer condemn you'. See Him speak to the cripple brought through the roof saying 'Son, your sins are forgiven you' (even before He ever repented!) Look at Him telling the woman at the well 'I am the living water' and to Nicodemus 'you must be born of the Spirit to see the kingdom'

There is no rule as to how we are to share Jesus with another. To do so is to limit Him from speaking through as HE chooses, rather than a set method.

Often our interpretations of hell are completely out of context. We believe it so strongly because much of the Reformed tradition passed that on to us. I am not downplaying all of the Reformed theology. Some of it is very good. But some of it still carried a lot of Catholic baggage.


 2010/8/12 11:59Profile
Lysa
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Joined: 2008/10/25
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This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: Re: Mattie


Mattie wrote:

----------------------------------
Hope that answers your question.
----------------------------------

No, it doesn't but I'm letting it go. We will have to agree to disagree.

Lisa


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Lisa

 2010/8/12 12:31Profile
Mattie
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 Re:

Ok

 2010/8/12 12:52Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
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Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Who is Christ addressing in the sermon on the mount where He explicitly warns about the judgment of eternal torment in hell? It says He spoke to the multitudes(Matt.5:1). John baptist did not warn Jews only but also gentile soldiers(Lk.3:14). We see this throughout the gospels. In Acts 24:25 we see that Paul reasoned with Felix the governor about righteosness and self-control and the coming judgment, and Felix became alarmed from the warnings.

To say that all the epistles in the New Testament address and warn only Christians is to twist the Scriptures to ones own destruction. It is clear that the writers wrote many of those letters with both believers and non believers in mind, for there are warnings which apply to both.

"By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil."(Prov.16:6)

"save others by snatching them out of the fire: to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh."(Jude 23)

"And do not fear those who kill the the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell"(Matt.10:28)

The idea of a universal salvation, or a second chance after death, are to be considered damnable heresies and shunned by all true Christians.

"Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen."(2Pet.3:15-18)



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Oracio

 2010/8/12 13:37Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
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 Re:

whyme wrote

Quote:
In an honest effort to understand the passages treated in the article, is one Scripturally warranted to conclude from God's desire to save all that He provides an opportunity for all to be saved? I ask this because I have a very good Catholic friend who holds that God must provide such an opportunity in order for Him to be "sincere" when He expresses His desire for all to be saved. Thus, in that belief system, a modicum of faith ( not even in Christ ) is all that is required of a man to be saved. Belief in the Gospel is not a prerequisite for those who have not heard it; which seems logical if you conclude that God must ( in order to make sense of His universal desire ) give to everyone an opportunity to be saved and yet not all hear the Gospel before they die.



The answer to this question has the do with what theologians call "General Revelation". That means that God has revealed certain basic truths about Himself to all men in every part of the world, whether or not they ever hear about Jesus Christ(Rom.1:19-20). But these basic truths are not enough for one to be saved, since Scripture makes it clear that one must come through faith in Christ to be saved(Jn.14:6). So how do we reconcile God's desire for all men to be saved and the fact that the gospel is not heard by all?

The answer is that if men will respond to God's General Revelation, God will give them more light, the light of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and He will reveal His Son to them. He is more than able to accomplish that and He will do so. God promises that those who sincerely seek to know Him will find Him, no matter who or where they are.

There are testimonies of people in remote parts of the world who have had Christ revealed to them in miraculous ways. It can be through a gospel tract, a missionary, or even a vision. The problem is that most of those people do not respond to General Revelation to begin with. Many seek to establish their own righteosness through false religions.


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Oracio

 2010/8/12 14:07Profile
Mattie
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Joined: 2004/7/23
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 Re:

Hi Oracio,

The 'judgment to come' that you are referring to doesn't have any indication that the judgment is a punishment with no end. That would be based on your own assumptions of the text. All of the texts you've show say nothing about it being endless punishment.

How do you know that the apostles wrote to believers AND unbelievers alike? Most the epistles are addressed to the saints, the faithful, the church, etc. What would cause you to think otherwise?

All the passages you quoted say nothing about the punishment being an endless one.

So you basically believe that God is love only up to a certain point, correct?

I hear it said He is love BUT He is just. Does His justice really contradict His love? Does He stop becoming a loving essence only to become a just essence? Doesn't make sense and sounds self contradictory.

 2010/8/12 14:51Profile





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