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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

fromtheold on 2010/7/29 5:37:54 writes
Ok so the whole gate thing was a legend?

It is a VERY old interpretation; it is quoted by Shakespeare!

As for a camel To thread the postern of a small needle's eye.
-King Richard II. Act v. Sc. 5.

but Jimmy is right. There is no authentic documentation for this interpretation.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/29 6:33Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: A Story

Ho! Everyone who thirsts,
Come to the waters;
And you who have no money,
Come, buy and eat.
Yes, come, buy wine and milk
Without money and without price. Is 55:1

How would someone 'without money'... 'come and buy?' (see also Rev 3:17,18)

The picture is of someone making a definite transaction, as the old evangelists used to say 'doing business with God'. The knowledge of the truth is not sufficient, we must move to God and consciously receive what he offers. We must 'take' the cup of salvation. Ps 116:13 while at the same time realising that we cannot make any contribution to this miracle other than our full hearted cooperation with God in 'taking' what he offers.

I knew a preacher who used to say 'regeneration is a gift, salvation will cost you everything you have'. There is a truth there.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/29 6:40Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

I really dont know then why Jesus would use the example of a needle then. Why not just say something else, why a needle?



Jesus used the example of the eye of the needle and camel as a hyperbolic illustration. It is insane to think a camel can pass through the eye of the needle. It is simply impossible. He used this illustration to enlarge the vision of his audience to realize how impossible salvation is, in spite of what we bring to the table. He used it to make us realize, salvation is a supernatural miracle that is God's doing.


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Jimmy H

 2010/7/29 9:07Profile
mguldner
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Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860
Kansas

 Re:

Quote:
Jesus used the example of the eye of the needle and camel as a hyperbolic illustration



I have also heard of yet another intrepretation on this, there were gates or something that were low hanging in some towns called The eye of the needle it was inpractical for camels to go through them because they were low hanging and in order for a camel to get through them they had to be incredibly low to the ground, hence is the same for us in order for us to enter the kingdom we must be really low in our minds and spiritual stature. I probably got that intrepretation mixed up some how because it has been a while since I have heard it but vaguely remember a pastor explaining it in this manner. I am sure you could find a more through illstration of this on google.

God Bless,
Matthew


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Matthew Guldner

 2010/7/29 9:25Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

KingJimmy on 2010/7/29 11:07:15 writes
"Jesus used the example of the eye of the needle and camel as a hyperbolic illustration. It is insane to think a camel can pass through the eye of the needle. It is simply impossible."

Here is another 'camel joke'...

Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! Matt 23:24


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/29 9:29Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Hi Matthew

"I have also heard of yet another intrepretation on this, there were gates or something that were low hanging in some towns called The eye of the needle it was inpractical for camels to go through them"

I think you may have joined the party a little late. ;-)

We have been talking about that interpretation and saying that although it is old and very popular there is really no historical evidence that such a 'needle's eye gate' ever existed.

The interpretation can serve us as a warning. It is amazing how many things we believe because somewhere someone has said something like... If you trace these ideas backwards you often find they all come from the same root which was just someone's good idea.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/29 9:33Profile
mguldner
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Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860
Kansas

 Re:

Ah you got me there and I suppose I did I guess that's what I get for not taking time to read through all of the post :)


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Matthew Guldner

 2010/7/29 9:35Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Here is another 'camel joke'...



I'm glad you said this, I intended to. It might come as a shock to some, but the Lord did use humor in His preaching :-)

If memory serves correct, since it has been a while since I've read about it, commentators say the eye of the needle interpretation that is often put forth started off as a footnote in some 200 year old-ish commentary. Eventually somebody else picked up on the idea, and reported the speculative footnote as fact. The fact became part of a popular commentary, and as a result, theological folk-lore.

But I could be wrong on that.


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Jimmy H

 2010/7/29 9:38Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

All of this by the way, should encourage us to become better students of God's word, who study it in light of its historical, grammatical, and contextual meaning. When making use of commentaries and other reference tools to help us better understand the social and cultural context of Jesus day, we need to read with a careful eye, and demand strong evidence of something, especially if we are going to use that evidence to shape our interpretation of a passage of Scripture.


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Jimmy H

 2010/7/29 9:41Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

I think the interpretation must be a good bit earlier than 200 years ago. As I mentioned earlier Shakespeare was familiar with the idea.

William Shakespeare (baptised 26 April 1564; died 23 April 1616)

As thus, 'Come, little ones,' and then again,
'It is as hard to come as for a camel
To thread the postern of a small needle's eye.'
Thoughts tending to ambition, they do plot
Unlikely wonders; how these vain weak nails
May tear a passage through the flinty ribs
Of this hard world, my ragged prison walls,
And, for they cannot, die in their own pride.

Richard II, Act 5, Scene 5.

Don't ask me for the interpretation!! although I do know that the 'postern' was a small, often hidden, exit from a medieval castle.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/29 9:42Profile





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