SermonIndex Audio Sermons
SermonIndex - Promoting Revival to this Generation
Give To SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : General Topics : jesus

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 )
PosterThread
Koheleth
Member



Joined: 2005/11/10
Posts: 530
NC

 Re:

Taylor,

I believe you have made some dangerous statements, ones that do not have support from the Scriptures. I do hope harm will come to no one by taking your statements serou

Quote:
Did Paul tell the "serious" Christians to come out of the church at Corinth when there was incest going on? What about the "serious" believers at the church of Sardis? Be committed to a church, even if you feel that nobody else is serious. How do you know, codek, if you will be the one to spark the needed revival of spiritual vitality in that church?



If that "church" has no serious believers but yourself, it is a group of people but not a church. As for Corinth, they had a "majority" (says Paul) who were willing to carry out Biblical discipline on the sinner. This is a far cry from many churches today.

The power structure in many so-called churches today is not according to Christ, so staying is of little use in bringing spiritual life. In the end, one must submit to the leadership, and if the leadership is not willing to follow Christ, forcing a warm-hearted believer to stay will just end up forcing him to become compromisingly comfortable with the sin there and will end up cooling his heart. If you want to stay as a witness to the lost, as a missionary, that is possible, but a believer cannot be a part of that "church".

Quote:
There is no such thing in the Bible as a Christian that is not connected to a visible body of believers



The Ethiopian eunuch is not known to be part of any church. There may be others, but the church was not considered an essential for him. Christ was.
Quote:
Therefore, I have told people before that, if they are not connected and committed to a visible church, they can have no assurance of their salvation in any Biblical sense of assurance.



Quote:
Therefore, I have told people before that, if they are not connected and committed to a visible church, they can have no assurance of their salvation in any Biblical sense of assurance.



Assurance in the Bible is never discussed in terms of the church. It is discussed in terms of the witness of the Spirit of God and of our own heart.

Quote:
I will be maligned for my words, but search the Scriptures and tell me if God ever gives a Christian directions to abandon the visible church.



I hope you do not feel maligned, but you are wrong. Paul said in that letter to the Corinthians to not even eat with one who is called a brother if they commit any of various sins. Many churches are riddled with these sins, and Paul instructs us not to spend time with them. As for "the visible church" if you mean the lukewarm, sin-tolerating, Bible-compromising churches of our day, you are wrong. No Scripture supports being part of that. It is not the bride of Christ and can easily be abandoned as far as spiritual fellowship goes.

 2010/7/21 4:59Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

If anyone can show me a Christian in the Scripture that didn't have a church, I will keep discussing this. But, until then, I have nothing left to say. Any Christian without a church is operating outside of the Scriptural norm.

The Ethiopian eunuch wasn't even a Christian when we meet him in Acts, so why would he have a church? He converts to Christianity in the Acts account and then we never hear about him again.

With care in Christ...


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2010/7/21 10:45Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

TaylorOtwell wrote:

"If anyone can show me a Christian in the Scripture that didn't have a church, I will keep discussing this. But, until then, I have nothing left to say. Any Christian without a church is operating outside of the Scriptural norm."


Brother, I just quoted such in Acts below.

Also, I am still waiting for my question to be answered, before your question to me/others, on what scriptures state that it is a sin to not be part of a visible church.?.?

If you can answer and post these scriptures, then I will keep discussing this with you as well...




_________________
Christiaan

 2010/7/21 11:14Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Miccah,

A "visible church" is any body of believers functioning as a Biblical church. I'm not talking about a building. A visible church can meet in a house, but it is still a local body of believers with Biblical eldership in place.

Hebrews 10:24 implies the sin of absenting one's self from the visible church. Even if you are not being encouraged, you could be the encourager, thereby fulfilling the Scripture. Simply because the others are disobedient to Hebrews 10:24 isn't license for us to be disobedient.


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2010/7/21 12:20Profile
osandoval
Member



Joined: 2010/2/19
Posts: 89


 Re:

TylorOtwell wrote,

"A visible church" is any body of believers functioning as a Biblical church. I'm not talking about a building. A visible church can meet in a house, but it is still a local body of believers with Biblical eldership in place.

Firstly, thank you for clarifying what you meant by the word "church". I would agree except for the part about eldership needing to be in place for it to function as a church. In Acts 14:23 we see that Paul and Barnabas returned to the churches at Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch and appointed elders in those churches. That means that for quite some time those churches did not have elders, because they were made up of new believers. Once they were mature enough, they had elders who had grown into that kind of maturity appointed from among them. I am not denying the need for eldership in a church. But when a church first begins, it does not need eldership if there are no believers who are mature enough yet. In this premilinary stage a church can still function as a church and encourage one another in the Lord, for where two or three are gathered in Christ's name He is in their midst.

You also wrote:
"Hebrews 10:24 implies the sin of absenting one's self from the visible church.Even if you are not being encouraged, you could be the encourager, thereby fulfilling the Scripture. Simply because the others are disobedient to Hebrews 10:24 isn't license for us to be disobedient."

The problem with this is that in most churches you do not have any opportunity to be an encouragement to anyone. Many only meet once or twice a week. And during the meeting there is a routine in which there is no chance of any participation other than singing along, giving money, and listening. You go in, get the bulletin, sit down, stand up, sing, give money, listen to a 30-60 minute sermon, sing again, and then everyone goes their own way. That is not biblical fellowship. I am not saying you cannot get any blessing from attending these services, but it is far from what God had in mind for His Church. And I would venture to say that it would be better to meet with two or three believers than to attend this type of setting where there is no mutual edification.

Brother Taylor, I understand where you are coming from as I used to believe similarly. And that is because I did not know any better. I was "institutionalized" in my way of thinking about church. The vast majority of Christians today are victims of this unbiblical system. Again, my prayers are with you and for you. God bless.
Oracio


 2010/7/21 13:08Profile
Koheleth
Member



Joined: 2005/11/10
Posts: 530
NC

 Re:

Quote:
The Ethiopian eunuch wasn't even a Christian when we meet him in Acts, so why would he have a church? He converts to Christianity in the Acts account and then we never hear about him again.



The argument from silence has little merit and is rightly rejected by believers and skeptics alike. It has no place in a proper discussion. No church historian believes or teaches that the church had spread to Ethiopia by this time. He had no church to return to. Simple fact. Please respond with the same.

 2010/7/23 17:30Profile





©2002-2024 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Revival to this Generation.
Privacy Policy