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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Romans 1:18--2:4 [You Are Without Excuse]

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 Romans 1:18--2:4 [You Are Without Excuse]

Dear Sisters and Brothers,

I've been repeatedly and harshly criticized for not discussing any of the other passages popularly used to condemn homosexuality. I think we can move on to Romans 1 & 2 now.

Quoting Romans 1 without continuing to chapter 2 is taking Romans 1 out of context. The word "therefore" in Romans 2:1 is crucial. It summarizes the significance of everything that came before.

"You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else." (Romans 2:1a)

We can't pass judgment on gays and lesbians because we share various traits of the worthless mind (Romans 1:28-31).

The intent of Romans 1 is NOT to document how bad it is to be gay. Or an idolator. Or a gossip. The purpose of this passage, the reason Paul wrote it, was to urge Christians to stop judging and condemning people.

It is ironic and perverse that so many of us twist the stated, explicit intent of this passage to justify the very judgment and condemnation that Paul is attempting so strongly to discourage.

Paul says, "You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things" (Rom 2:1).

The key indicator of the intent of Romans 1 is the word "therefore" in Romans 2:1. The Romans 1 account of humanity's universal descent into sin is to warn Christians against judging people.

The problem? Most of us don't really believe that we are as sinful as homosexuals. We tolerate gossips in the church without expelling them from the fellowship. We tolerate people who are heartless and ruthless in how they talk about people and treat people without saying "mark and avoid." We tolerate people who write senseless nonsense, but we don't warn them that their souls are in peril. These are all sins of the depraved mind, and they are quite common among Christians.

Paul said, "at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things." What is the sin that fornication, ruthlessness, homosexuality, and gossip have in common? What is the basic sin that is at the core of all these symptoms? The root sin is people's refusal to glorify God or give thanks to him. "They neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him" (Romans 1:21).

THESIS: The purpose of Romans 1 is found in Romans 2, following the word “Therefore.” To use Romans 1 as an excuse to condemn homosexuals is a perversion of the text.

"You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things" (Rom 2:1).

Christians Are Characterized by the Sins of the Worthless Mind

I have detected the following qualities in many Christians: malice, slander, insolence, arrogance, senselessness--unloving, and unmerciful. These are among the sins of the depraved mind. We all share in the sins of the worthless mind. At various times in my life I have been troubled by about 2/3 of them.

Repeat: We are all characterized by sins of the worthless mind. Maybe not all of them, but some of them. And we tolerate them in the churches and in our friends all the time.

Paul said about us good, religious folk: “Although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them."

When we approve the malice, slander, insolence, arrogance, senselessness, and the lack of love and mercy, of others, we "give hearty approval to those who practice them."

If we continue to use Romans 1 to prove that homosexuals are worthy of being singled out for special approbation, then we are guilty of twisting Paul’s words, and using Romans 1 to the exact opposite purpose that Paul wrote it. He wrote it to warn us against judging and condemning, and we turn right around and use it to judge and condemn.

"You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things."

In Christian love,

Ron

 2010/7/7 1:57
mguldner
Member



Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1862
Kansas

 Re: Romans 1:18--2:4 [You Are Without Excuse]

This passage isn't speaking of not judging in a righteous manner, it is discussing those judging while being a hypocrite to the things they judge. I understand your view but pointing the finger back at those that stand up against homosexuals and the things the bible stands up against itself and say they are judging isn't going to make homosexuals anymore approved of nor take away the wrath that they themselves store up for themselves.

God has given both camps a chance to REPENT and be saved. Notice in chapter 2 verse 4 it says that God's Goodness Leads us to REPENTANCE. Repentance is a continual turning away from SIN this includes hypocritical judgement and homosexuality. If you aren't making war on the very sin that nailed Jesus Christ to the Cross you yourself are worthy of death because JESUS CHRIST's MISSION and PURPOSE was to FREE MEN and WOMEN from SIN.

If you were about to drink poison and I knew it but didn't warn you wouldn't I then be guilty of murder? To the same if you were or are doing a sin that leads to death but I don't warn you of that death that will come with it wouldn't I then be guilty of the very SAME murder? For the Wages of ALL SIN lead to the SAME Death.

The Copout Don't judge me seems always to be used, I can in Love warn them of the Wrath to Come that they store for themselves. I understand your view of Christians condemning Homosexuals for their lifestyle the problem is in light of Scripture they Already Stand Condemned before a HOLY and JUST GOD

Your statements of malice, slander, insolence, arrogance, senselessness and lack of Love and Mercy very well could be a true statement on the whole of Christianity however this is catagorizing all Christians has hatemongers that only look to slander and hate homosexuals. Generalizing is never a wise thing to do, I for one love homosexuals and because I love them I will warn them of the consequences of sin and that Christ Jesus came to FREE them from SIN and DEATH to REPENT and MAKE WAR on their SIN. I will Love them but by Loving them I cannot approve of their lifestyles and actions just as I can't approve of those that live contrary to their beliefs.

The MARK of a Christian, A TRUE CHILD OF GOD, Is that they WILL FLEE SIN and INIQUITY. When they mess up they are crushed by that sin because they have a reverence for GOD ALMIGHTY and because they truly LOVE CHRIST JESUS who DIED for that very SIN.

I say this out of Love and respect, repent and be saved.

God Bless,
Matthew


_________________
Matthew Guldner

 2010/7/7 2:48Profile









 Re:

Well said, Matthew. Well said.

I still believe that Paul's statement is to all of us who judge, that ALL judgment and condemnation is hypocrisy.

"Therefore, anyone of you who judges is without excuse. For when you judge another, you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the same things."

If gossip is the only sin of the worthless mind that I'm afflicted with, and I condemn homosexuals, I am without excuse.

Why? Not because I'm a homosexual judging another homosexual, but because I am guilty of the root sin, the refusal to give place to God as the ONLY Lawgiver and Judge.

James tells us not to judge our brother or neighbor, because there is only one Lawgiver and Judge.

"He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks against the law and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge of it.

There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor?" (James 4:11-12)

Matthew, there's no mention here of judging righteously or of hypocrisy. God is the Lawgiver and Judge.

We quote scripture and act as judge. We think we are justified because we are, after all, only quoting the Bible.

But we're still playing judge. It's fun to dress up in the robes and pound the gavel. Feels so official, almost real. What a rush to speak with such absolute confidence.

But there is only one Judge.

I used to play judge. I know what the "rush of righteousness" feels like. And I'm still tempted to play judge sometimes. But I really do try to not compete with God for his job.

 2010/7/7 3:26
mguldner
Member



Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1862
Kansas

 Re:

I am not judging by telling you the truth, Don't you know that the Word of God is the Judge? Because the Word of God is God Himself representing God.

When I tell someone that homosexuals will not inherit the Kingdom of God its not out of Judgment but of Warning.

The Bible already condemns sin and so by doing that No one will be counted as blameless.

There is a righteous judgment one that is based off the Word of God that is correctly interpreted, the bible says You will know them by their fruits and so we are called to judge fruits WITH the Holy Spirit and the WORD of GOD.

Do you think homosexuals will be without excuse as well? Or will they be justified by the excuses they present? I would think not, God gave us the WORD of God to reproof, correct, instruct people in righteousness.

I wouldn't dare play judge but I can play the mouthpiece of warning. I will assure you that I am first that is judged in my eyes and if God doesn't approve of my hetereo Sexual Immorality he most certianly won't over look homosexuality.

I understand your case and I have seen this as well many "Christians" will throw rocks at homosexuals and say they are going to hell while those very rock throwers are commiting adultry or looking with lust. These I assure you will not be found blameless either if they don't REPENT and Turn to Christ for Salvation.

I know that you don't really know me but I assure you that I hunger and thirst for Righteousness in this matter when I preach a message that would talk about homosexuality I also equally address sexual immorality both will not inherit the Kingdom of God according to the Word of God and if the Word of God says it then I certianly can trust it to be so, and by trusting it MUST sound a warning to those in sexual immorality whether hetereo or homo.

Love is NOT Tolerance but Truth in Light of the scriptures I must warn and correct those that think contrary to the Truth of the Scriptures.

Again I am not the Judge, I let the HOLY WORD be the Judge. Test Yourself to see whether you are of the Faith, EXAMINE YOURSElF or don't you know that Christ is in you? And If Christ IS in you don't you know that this will expell the sin in our lives? The Seed of Christ produces Holiness, Not continuance in SIN, Repent and be Saved FROM SIN.

God Bless,
Matthew


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Matthew Guldner

 2010/7/7 3:45Profile









 "The Riches of His Kindness, TOLERANCE and Patience"

Hi Matthew,

Matthew, I understand what you're saying, and I don't sense what some other people would call a "judgmental spirit" when you write. [I don't use that phrase, at all actually, because it seems so vague, but you know what I mean.]

I'd like to ask you about one point you made.

"Love is NOT Tolerance but Truth in Light of the scriptures I must warn and correct those that think contrary to the Truth of the Scriptures."

Forgive me, but I really have to disagree, because the Bible says the opposite.

"So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment?

"Or do you show CONTEMPT for the riches of his kindness, TOLERANCE and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?" (Romans 2:3-4, NIV)

Matthew, what is it that God "tolerates"?

It is God's KINDNESS that leads us to repentance. God's kindness, tolerance, and patience are all involved in leading us to turn around, to make that radical change of direction in our lives.

Matthew, I believe in the diversity of gifts and ministries (I Corinthians 12). I don't believe we are all called to identical ministries. We are free to disagree with one another. That's part of the diversity of gifts and callings.

Having said that, the Bible specifically says we "show CONTEMPT for the RICHES of his kindness, TOLERANCE and patience" when we as mere men "pass judgment on them."

I think we need to re-think all this disdain for "tolerance," considering what Romans 2:4 says. You and I, we Christians, are seriously warned against showing CONTEMPT for the riches of God's TOLERANCE.

So no. Your statement, "Love is NOT Tolerance," is incorrect.

Tolerance is a virtue, part of the riches of God which bring us to make that complete turnaround in our lives, repentance. If God is tolerant of me, I can be tolerant of nearly anyone else.

God bless you!

 2010/7/7 5:24
mguldner
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Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1862
Kansas

 Re: "The Riches of His Kindness, TOLERANCE and Patience"

I would have to disagree with you though.

God doesn't tolerate sin forever, there will come a day when HE will judge the earth in Righteousness and Holiness. All that have not repented, including all that are sexually immoral, will be cast into hellfire for all eternity. He has given us tolerance NOW to repent and be saved.

I will tolerate individuals but tolerance has nothing to do with Approval of Sin. I will not approve of any form of sin as tolerable to GOD nor will I tell someone that lives in continual sin contrary to God's Word they will go to heaven, for God is perfect and without SIN, He is so incredibly Holy that He had to look away from His Beloved Son Christ Jesus when He took the Sins of man upon Himself on the Cross.

I will agree we are to tolerate people but sin shouldn't be tolerated especially within ourselves. When we tolerate Sin in ourselves we crucify Christ ALL over again putting Him to shame yet again.

This passage if for the unrepentive Hypocrite that says one thing and does the exact opposite that is why in Romans 2:22 says "You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal?" These men taught one thing and do the exact opposite, What then do I teach? Holiness does this mean I am holy? Not perfectly holy but my heart is set on Holiness and I run for the prize of Holiness with the strength of Jesus Christ and His Blood that cleanses my sin.

TRUE Christianity is a CALL from Sin not an excuse to SIN, when a real Christian sins they are deeply Hurt and convicted of that sin showing Godly Sorrow and true regret that Leads to Repentance ie Turning away from Sin and turning whole heartily to God.

God WILL NOT Tolerate Sin on Judgment day, Period. There is No grey area for Him, the Unrepentive will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

God's grace is only offered now and if we don't accept it now through repentance and Christ Jesus that is how we hold God's Kindness and Patience in Contempt. BY KNOWING God wants to show them kindness and patience if they repent but by refusing to repent because they love their sin, the Very Sin Christ died for. THIS is how we Hold God's kindness in contempt by NOT recognizing the Great Kindness and Goodness God wishes to give to use through Christ Jesus which IS Freedom from Sin.

God Bless,
Matthew


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Matthew Guldner

 2010/7/7 5:50Profile
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 Re: Romans 1:18--2:4 [You Are Without Excuse]

Reading this thread makes me realize that there is a vast difference between judging and warning. If I look at a person living in sin and say, you stink, your are going to rot in hell, and have no thought of redemption in my heart I am like what Jesus spoke about:

Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men [are], extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

This is judging and non-redemptive. But if I in love warn people away from their sin it is redemptive.

1Cr 5:1 ¶ It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, [concerning] him that hath so done this deed

1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Mar 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

2Cr 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.

2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Hbr 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble [you], and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there [be] any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

1Cr 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Act 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17 Delivering thee from the people, and [from] the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18 To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.



If we do not reprove, rebuke and exhort the lost will remain so and their blood will be on our hands:


Eze 33:9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.



If I truly love somebody then I will not keep my mouth shut when they start to walk in front of a truck or off a ledge. Love constrains me to speak. This is not judging it is warning. Love warns. There are consequences for remaining in sin, it is death. If I love somebody I will want them to have life, not death. This is very far from the pharisees judgmental spirit.



Jesus did not tell the woman taken in adultry to go and continue on in her sin. He said:

Jhn 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

As you can see love said I don't condemn you, but go and sin no more. This is love without judgment. This is what we are called to speak as well.

Ron you have listed many sins that those who judge practice themselves, this is true. The fact that we do one doesn't justify the other. All are sin and need repenting of. We need to have Jesus' heart that says neither do I condemn thee, go and sin no more.

1Jo 5:18 ¶ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Do we want to sit quietly by and watch homosexuals, liars, unbelieving and the rest have their part in this lake. That is not love. It is hate.


Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
do those things which are not convenient;
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.



There is a wage to be paid for all sin, but there is also redemption in our Lord Jesus Christ, but it doesn't come without repentance.



Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

r 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Mar 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Mar 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.


Jer 20:9 Then I said, I will not make mention of him, nor speak any more in his name. But [his word] was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not [stay].

Tolerance does not wink at sin. Tolerance loves the sinner even after he is preached the gospel. It has longsuffering to see the sinner set free. It loves enough to want life for those that are dead. This is not judgmental but redemptive.


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KLC

 2010/7/7 10:12Profile
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 Re: Romans 1:18--2:4 [You Are Without Excuse]

id like to respond to brother Ron, my personal conviction is homosexuality is sin. What saddens me about the christian gay discussion is some christians have focused so much on homosexuality that some may think homosexuality is a worse sin then for a normal man or woman that lust after someone else then their spouse, or watch Internet pornography, or stealing, or any other sin, so in this aspect we should not judge others since we our selves are also sinners.

But also an interesting thing is there is atleast 5 different words in the greek that get same translation in english. "judge"

some things we are directly commanded by God to judge or discern. One example is we should always discern wheter the word we hear preached is the word of God, is this true or not? is this man a true prophet or a false?

we are also commanded to not judge in some cases, for exampel we are forbidden to judge whom goes to heaven or hell, this judgment is Gods alone.

And Jesus also says when judging judge righteously.

So in short, some judgment we are commanded to do, some not. but to judge what is sin or not we must do to walk right with God. Jesus did not tolerate all people, he whipped people out of the church.... He called people brood of vipers... and since satan is pictured as a viper in the word that is a heavy statement from the most humble and loving man ever lived.

We should also first and foremost judge ourselves, but we must also judge things around us, the word commands this, Jesus commands this, and if we love him we obey his commandments.

Also looking at what has been considered the "healthy" main stream of christian history, to my little church history knowledge homosexuality has always been considered a sin, as stealing has always been considered a sin, murder has always been considered a sin etc.

just a few thoughts, i will post later a good article on judging that dwell upon this word "judge" and explain much better then me.

God bless

Christian


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CHRISTIAN

 2010/7/7 12:41Profile
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 Re: Romans 1:18--2:4 [You Are Without Excuse]

Its quite long but very worth the time, and it clears up many misunderstandings in todays Christendom about judging.
--------------------------------------------------
Judge Not




DO NOT SPEAK AGAINST ONE ANOTHER, brethren. He who speaks against a brother, or judges his brother, speaks against the law, and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law, but a judge of it (James 4:11).

Do not speak against one another. Do not speak against your brethren. Do not judge your brother. Is that what it says? Look at verse 4 of the same chapter.

You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility to-ward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God (James 4:4).

You adulteresses!

Do not judge your brother!

From the pen of the same apostle, in the distance of a few paragraphs, in almost the same breath that he is saying "do not judge," James calls worldly churches "adulteresses."

Spiritual Adultery

James is probably the oldest book of the New Testament. We know from its Hebraic background, from the way it draws on synagogue leadership structure and the Scriptures, that it was obviously written to Jewish Christians.
James is using the Hebrew concept of whoredom or harlotry. Whenever Israel went into idolatry, God calls it "adultery." Idolatry equals spiritual adultery.

Israel was to be God's woman, in much the same way as the church is the bride of Christ. The church being unfaithful is like Israel being unfaithful. That idolatry is called "adultery." It is a very strong term in Hebrew, a very strong concept in the Jewish mind.

By Their Fruit

Every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits (Matthew 7:17-20).

Jesus said that you can judge someone by their fruit. In the same chapter, He says, Do not judge lest you be judged (Matthew 7:1).

First it is, "Judge not lest you be judged," yet He goes on to say, "You will know them by their fruits." People involved with Toronto and Pensacola say, "You know Toronto/ Pensacola by its fruit and there is good fruit from it."

Jesus never said that you would know a phenomena by its fruit He said that you would know a person by their fruit.

More than that, even judging a phenomenon by its fruit, you can see that it is not the fruit of the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is self-control, not drunkenness and lunacy.

Contradictions?

Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgement (John 7:24).
First Jesus says, "Judge not lest you be judged," but then He says, "Judge with right judgement."

James appeared to contradict himself. Now Jesus seems to contradict himself. Jesus said, "Don't do it," then He tells you how to do it. James said, "Don't do it," straight after he did it.

Therefore you are without excuse, every one of you who passes; judgement, for in that you would judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things (Romans 2:1).

Therefore do not go on passing judgement before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things that are hidden in darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God (1 Corinthians 4:5).

But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God (Romans 14:10).

For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this [the guy in question here was involved in an incestuous relationship with his father's wife ], as though I were present (1 Corinthians 5:3).

Over and over, Paul says, "Don't judge." But then he passes judgment.

Jesus says, "Don't judge," but then he says to do it and shows you how.

James says, "Don't judge," but then he does it.

Why the contradictions?

God is the Judge

If God says in the Bible that something is wrong, and we see someone or some church do that thing, we are not judging them, it is the Word of God that judges.

The Hebrew name, "Jehoshaphat" means Jehovah has judged. That is not me or you judging. We are simply acknowledging, "This is what God says."

James was not calling worldly churches "adulteresses." The Word of God says that, if we are attached to this world, we are an adulteress church.

Paul was not saying that the man involved with his step-mother was immoral. Paul was saying that the Word of God says that person was immoral.

If God says that something is plainly wrong, that is not you or me judging, that is God judging.

That is what it means when it says, "Judge with right judgement." Judging with right judgement means judging with God's judgement, not with our own.

There is a big problem here -- there are things that I would not do, but which are not necessarily wrong for someone else.

People's Opinions

I know of a case where some believers, after their wedding, went to a discotheque. (I would not go to a discotheque unless it was to give out tracts.) I did not feel a peace about going, but I am not going to make a big deal out of it, no matter what my own misgivings or feelings.

I know of another case in Ireland where, at a Christian wedding, people danced. Other people became indignant and began yelling, "You're backsliders," and stormed out of the wedding, creating a big scene. It split a church. That is people judging.

The word "Laodicea" has to do in the Greek with "people's opinions, people's judgements." We have no right to make a judgement of another person, but once God says something is right or wrong,that is not us judging.

Anakrino - To Discern

The Greek word for "judge" is krino.

If you put the prefix "ana" in front of the word "krino," you get a variation on the idea of himself is judged [anakrino] by no man (1 Corinthians 2:15).

God, in His Word, commands us to anakrino. It is not a right; it is not a privilege; it is not something that is advisable. We are commanded to do it. And if you do not discern, you lack wisdom.

There is a reason why false teachers will not stand up publicly and debate someone like Hank Hangraaff or Dave Hunt.

People who will stand up and say, "That is not Scriptural." "That is not right." "I discern that this is not of God," are practicing wisdom.

The reason why Michael Brown backed out of his debate with me over Pensacola, and why Jim McConnell backed out of his debate with me over British Israelism is that they lack wisdom.

Those who practice wisdom, cannot themselves be judged by anyone. Because they anakrino, they cannot be anakrinoed. That is why those others are afraid of them.

Diakrino - To Decide

I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not among you one wise man who will be able to decide [diakrino] between his brethren? (1 Corinthians 6:5).

Another prefix which changes the meaning of krino is "dia." Diakrino means to "render a decision."

Is something right or wrong? Is someone's behavior right or wrong morally? Is it Scriptural or unscriptural? Is it of God, or is it of the flesh, or of the devil?

The Holy Spirit speaking through Paul commands that we are to diakrino.

We are not permitted to diakrino. We are not advised to diakrino. We are not privileged to diakrino. We are commanded to diakrino. It is not that judging is acceptable. Rather, to fail to judge is unacceptable.

Not Allowed to Go to the Secular

About two months ago a woman and her husband contacted us, very distressed. They had a four year old girl who was the victim of semi-penetrated sex in a church. She was molested by a fourteen year old boy, who was supposedly a "Christian" going to that same church for years.

This little girl was devastated. She drew me a picture, and as soon as I saw the picture, I knew what it was.

Now, I do not have much time for secular psychology. I believe in Biblical psychology, but I do believe in psychology. Biblical psychology is based in the book of Proverbs.

If you want to know why human beings behave and act the way they do, and think the way they do, read Proverbs. That is the best book of sociology and psychology there is.

I can agree with human psychology to the degree that it is based on Biblical psychology. Secular psychology is godless, and sees man as a two dimensional being. It concerns me that so many evangelicals have gotten into secular psychology and pop psychology.

The little girl drew a picture of a house. Inside the house there were four windows and a door. Each face inside the house was female, there were no male faces.
And she drew a picture of herself, outside. There was no pelvis. There was no pubic area.

That, according to pediatric psychiatrists, is a very frequent characteristic of drawings by children who have been sexually abused.

Children of that age will say things with pictures and drawings that they cannot express verbally. No men and she herself had no mid-section.

Her parents told me, "We don't know what to do. We go to a Baptist church and the pastor can't advise us because this fourteen year old boy is a Christian, and, based on 1 Corinthians, we are not allowed to go to the secular authorities about another believer.

So, according to his parents, we can't tell the police or the court what has happened. We are at our wit's end; we don't know what to do. Our daughter is traumatized."

Civil Law/Criminal Law

1 Corinthians 6 refers to Roman law. (The systems of jurisprudence in Britain, Australia and America are based on the original model in Rome.) 1 Corinthians 6 is talking about civil law, not criminal law; it is talking about suing someone under civil law, about litigation, it is not talking about criminal law.

It is 1 Corinthians 5 that talks about an immoral person.

I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother [any so-called Christian] if he should be an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler -- not even to eat with such a one.

For what have I to do with judging [krino] outsiders? Do you not judge [krino] those who are within the church? (1 Corinthians 5:11-12)
We judge those who are within the church, who are guilty of immorality. Do not even associate with the person. Chapter 6 is not talking about criminal law. It is talking about civil law.

That fourteen-year-old should have been dealt with under the criminal law. His identity would have been protected by the court because of his age.

If something was not done for that kid at the age of fourteen, by the age of eighteen his life would have been destroyed. He would have been in an institution for pedophiles.

But this fourteen-year-old had a chance. He should have been brought before the authorities for his own good, and also so that the little girl could have seen justice being done.

If this kind of stuff is not dealt with by the church immediately, what is going to happen when these people get older?

The victims are traumatized for their whole lives. It affects their sexuality when they grow up. And that church could not even give a Biblical answer!

(It was probably a good thing it was a Baptist minister. He could not give a biblical answer, but if it had been a Pentecostal minister, he probably would have tried to cast demons out of the little girl!)

I talked to my friend's wife, who is a Christian pediatric psychiatrist, and I showed the pictures to a Christian pediatric psychologist. They both agreed with the advice I gave the parents. And the parents referred the matter to the criminal authorities.

But what were these other ones saying? "Do not judge." "You cannot go to the authorities about another Christian and you cannot judge another Christian."

What were they doing? Giving people a license to sexually abuse little kids?

This is what happens when the church goes away from God's Word.

We are not allowed to diakrino, we are commanded to diakrino; but it has to do with more than just people.

Judging Prophecy

And let two or three prophets speak, and let the others [diakrino] pass judgement (1 Corinthians 14:29). We are commanded to judge prophecy.

But the prophet who shall speak a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he shall speak in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.

And you may say in your heart, "How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?"

When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken.

The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him (Deuteronomy 18:20-22).

Jeremiah 14 and Jeremiah 28 says the same thing. Jesus warned that there would be many false prophets in the last days.

We do not stone them to death any more, but the sin is no less serious. They shall die if they do not repent.

We are not under the law, but under grace; but their "ministries" should be stoned. 1 Corinthians 14:29 does not say that we are entitled to diakrino prophets or prophecies, rather we are commanded to judge prophets and prophecies.

On this basis, Rodney Howard Browne is a false prophet. On this basis, John Wimber was a false prophet. On this basis, Rick Joyner is a false prophet. And on this basis, Paul Cain is a false prophet.

Now, that is not my judgement. I cannot krino anybody. The things that God has said will krino. I have to anakrino. I have to discern. Is this of God or is this of man?

No, it is not for me to judge. I have to diakrino, render a decision on whether it is morally right or wrong, by biblical standards.

The founders of the Mormon cult and the Jehovah Witnesses were false prophets; they predicted things that failed to happen. The Roman Catholic nun, Lucia, from Fatima, in Portugal, is a false prophet; she predicted things that failed to happen. John Wimber and Paul Cain and Rick Joyner (as well as John Kilpatrick, Michael Brown and Gerald Coates) are false prophets; they predicted things that failed to happen.

Do I have the right to say that? No, not the right, but the responsibility to say it, the command from my God in heaven to say it. That is not my judgment; it is what God says about these people.

Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." If you fail to diakrino, you are failing to keep His commandments. If you fail to diakrino, you will let these same people go on giving people "words" from their own flesh or from Satan. People like that should be brought to account.

Judge Righteously

Then I charged your judges at that time, saying, "Hear the cases between your fellow countrymen, and judge righteously between a man and his fellow countrymen, or the alien who is with him" (Deuteronomy 1:16).

That was not advice; that was a command.

Just look at what has happened to our secular society. Everybody is a "victim."

It does not matter that he got blind drunk and he was driving at 90 miles an hour through a village and killed a little kid on a bicycle. He came from a broken home: he is a "victim." It does not matter.

I tried to talk to a prostitute the other day. "I do this because my father hung himself." That was her argument. "I came from a bad situation." I said, "You just told me that your sister goes to university and she came from the same background, and she thinks that what you are doing is terrible. Isn't she a victim, too?" Nobody is responsible for their own actions any more in society. But how can we expect society to live up to God's standards, when the church will not live up to God's standards.

I came from a bad situation. My father drank. I was a drug addict by the age of sixteen, and I have no doubt whatsoever that, if Jesus had not intervened in my life, I would be dead by now or a destroyed person of some kind.

It is only because of Him that I went to university and got married and did the things I have been privileged to do.

Left to myself, I would not have amounted to anything. Nonetheless, I am responsible for my own life and my own choices.

Salt and Light

If the church will not uphold God's standards of responsibility, how can we expect our society to be any different?

If we are not upholding His standards, how can we be salt and light to a society that has turned it's back on God?

No wonder there is crime! The main reason for the moral and social decline of our society is not because of the unsaved people; it is because of the lukewarm church.

Krisis - Heaven or Hell

There is a kind of judging that we are not called to do. The Greek word is krisis.

For not even the father judges anyone, but He has given all judgement [krisis] to the Son (John 5:22).

The ultimate determination of heaven and hell belongs to the Lord alone. We never krisis. We are forbidden to krisis.

Krites - The Judge of All

But you have come to the general assembly and church of the first born who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge [krites] of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect (Hebrews 12:23).

God is the judge of all. Yes, there are people who are called to judge, but God is the ultimate Judge of us all.

Hupo-Krites - Pharisees

If we are going to stand up and confront other people in the church about something being wrong, we had better make sure we are not guilty of the same thing, because that is another kind of judging we are forbidden to do.

Here the prefix hupo is added to krites, giving us the English word "hypocrites."

This is what Jesus meant when he said, Do not judge lest you be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

And why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speck out of your eye," and behold, the log is in your own eye?

You hypocrite [hupokrites], first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye (Matthew 7:1-5).

We do not krites and we especially do not hupokrites.

Kritikos - To Discern

For the Word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge [kritikos] the thoughts and intentions of the heart (Hebrews 4:12).

Cells called erythrocytes are stored in the red marrow of big bones, like the femur and the tibia. On the outside there is the bone and on the inside there is the marrow. But in between there is an area where, even with a microscope, it is very difficult to tellwhere the bone ends and where the marrow begins.

The Bible says that the relationship between soul and spirit is like that. Take prophecy: Was that from someone's imagination, or was it God's Spirit speaking through their spirit? It is very difficult to tell the difference.

Man is a three-dimensional being. You can separate a body from a soul; but you cannot easily tell where the soul ends and the spirit begins.

When people say, "The Lord showed me this" and "God told me that," it is difficult to know if it is someone's imagination or God's Spirit speaking to their spirit. The mind is a good servant, but a dangerous master. Many people overtly demonic, but they are prophesying from the futility of their own mind.

We are called to kritikos -- to discern between the soulish and the spiritual. The Word of God enables us to separate the bone from the marrow, the spiritual from the purely soulish.

Summary

Judge not? What does the Bible say?

1. We never judge from our opinions.
2. We are commanded to anakrino -- we always seek to discern: "Is this of God, or is it of the flesh,or of the devil?"
3. We are commanded to diakrino -- to render a decision as to whether something is morally right or wrong.
4. We do not krisis -- the Lord alone decides who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.
5. We are sometimes appointed to krites -- but we are to remember that the Lord is the Judge of all, and we are to judge righteously.
6. We never, ever, hupo-krites -- before we take a speck out of our brother's eye, we make sure we do not have the same speck in our own eye.
7. We always kritikos -- we draw on the Word of God to discern between the things of the soul and the things of the spirit.


by James Jacob Prasch


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2010/7/7 12:45Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

hmmhmm
It would also be good to notice the difference between
krinO and katakrinO

krino is the process of assessing
katakrinO is the passing of the guilty verdict.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2010/7/7 14:44Profile





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