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 Varieties of Folly

"If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." -- Jesus --

"To pretend that we have the power to discharge debts against God is folly." -- Philologus --

As you wish, Ron.

 2010/7/12 16:34
Miccah
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 Re:

philologos wrote:

"For anyone who claims to have power to forgive sins and to release debts, with no accompanying repentance or knowledge, the obvious question is 'why don't you forgive the sins of the whole world?"


I think that this is a great question to ask. RonaldGoetz, what is your reply?






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Christiaan

 2010/7/12 18:55Profile
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This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: our debts


by philologos:

Quote:
For anyone who claims to have power to forgive sins and to release debts, with no accompanying repentance or knowledge, the obvious question is 'why don't you forgive the sins of the whole world?'



Brother,
I know Ronald can give his own answer but I just wanted to say that your question sounds as bad as asking those who believe healing is for today, "why don't you just go through the hospitals and clean them out of sick people?" Just saying..

God bless,


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Lisa

 2010/7/12 21:15Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
I know Ronald can give his own answer but I just wanted to say that your question sounds as bad as asking those who believe healing is for today, "why don't you just go through the hospitals and clean them out of sick people?" Just saying..



I would respectfully disagree, and say that the two statements are a bit of an "apples and oranges" comparison. Because honestly, if we are given the authority to forgive others their sins, what's the purpose of outreach, why not do what Philologos suggested COULD be done (by the implication presented him) and just forgive the world? I can forgive Japan and then just pack up and go home, as long as I remember to keep forgiving their wickedness from time to time.

 2010/7/12 21:48Profile
philologos
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 Re: Varieties of Folly

Quote:
by RonaldGoetz on 2010/7/12 18:34:07

"If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." -- Jesus --

"To pretend that we have the power to discharge debts against God is folly." -- Philologus --

As you wish, Ron./quote]
That sounds like a clincher until you ask who is 'you' and John 20 makes it pretty clear that Ronald Goetz was not among the number.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/13 4:12Profile
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 Who can repay?

"But if he has wronged you or owes anything, put that on my account. 19 I, Paul, am writing with my own hand. I will repay—not to mention to you that you owe me even your own self besides." Philem 1:18–19 NKJV

This comes from the little gem of Philemon. The word 'owe' here is the one used in Matt where it is translated 'debt'.

This is so obvious that I hesitated to mention it but notice who is going to 'pay' for Onesimus's debt to Philemon. Paul will repay. He will put his hand into his own pocket and cancel Onesimus's debt. Who then can repay our debt incurred by disobedience to God? Theoretically anyone who has the cash. The revelation of the New Testament is that 'only God has the cash'. Unless we can put our hands into our own pockets we have no right to cancel another's debt.

To claim that we can forgive the sins of the unrepentant and unknowing is an affront to the plain logic of this pattern. To take something from 'God's pocket' that we have not been specifically authorised to do is theft or worse.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/13 4:20Profile
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 Re: Who can repay?

This thread has given me a lot to think about. I can honestly say that if someone had asked me last week what that verse meant, I probably would have let my eyes glaze over and just said I don't know.

I also agree though that the Pharisees failure was not questioning Jesus right to forgive, but rather their error was failing to recognize who Jesus was, thus their, "house was left unto them desolate." They hated that Jesus forgave others because they were right, only God could forgive...thus they did not recognize who was among them.

The Pharisees utterly dropped the ball in recognizing the messiah and what he was intended to do. They held a completely wrong eschatology and failed in apprehending Jesus as the Spirit of Prophecy. Because humility was not in them, they could not recognize the Spirit of truth.


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Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/7/13 22:33Profile
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 Re:

Absolution, Divine pardon, or Remission of sins belongs only to God.

The following is a quotation from 'Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible. Albert Barnes (1798-1870)

"This authority given them was full proof that they were inspired. The meaning of the passage is not that man can forgive sins that belongs only to God Isa_43:23 but that they should be inspired; that in founding the church, and in declaring the will of God, they should be taught by the Holy Spirit to declare on what terms, to what characters, and to what temper of mind God would extend forgiveness of sins.

It was not authority to forgive individuals, but to establish in all the churches the terms and conditions on which men might be pardoned, with a promise that God would confirm all that they taught; that all might have assurance of forgiveness who would comply with those terms; and that those who did not comply should not be forgiven, but that their sins should be retained.

This commission is as far as possible from the authority which the Roman Catholic claims of remitting sin and of pronouncing pardon".

 2010/7/14 5:13Profile









 Re: John 20:23

Areadymind said:

Quote:
I also agree though that the Pharisees failure was not questioning Jesus right to forgive, but rather their error was failing to recognize who Jesus was



I don't mean to divert the thread, but I'm not sure they really didn't get it. They really did say, later, 'We have no king but Caesar', but, not everyone agreed with them. John 6:14, 15.

I suggest, it's possible to read everything that's recorded of their denial of Jesus' Divinity, as exactly that - denial - rather than ignorance.

Accusations of His personification of Beelzebub, or association with him, by scribes sent from Jerusalem in Mark 3, have their comments returned to them by Jesus with interest, but can they continue to pretend they don't recognise His relationship with God? John 3:2.


Anyway; food for thought.




 2010/7/14 8:09
Areadymind
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 Re:

"I suggest, it's possible to read everything that's recorded of their denial of Jesus' Divinity, as exactly that - denial - rather than ignorance."

I think you are right there Alive-to-God.


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Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/7/14 9:12Profile





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