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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : John 20:23

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EverestoSama
Member



Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re:

Quote:
That is certainly true but unless you were in the upper room this authority has not been given to you.



Philologos,
This is kind of along the line of what I was thinking about this verse, along with the verse of binding and loosing. To me, it appears that many have misinterpreted it to think that we ALL have this authority, though I'm more inclined to believe similar to yourself, that there was a certain special authority given directly to whom Jesus was speaking to, exclusively. Which is the same reason that in the book of Acts they were able to judge together in the Spirit what would be permissible for the new Gentile believers, and what was to be abstained from. It was a specific authority given to specific men. Just my spin though.

 2010/7/5 20:50Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

RonaldGoetz wrote:

Quote:
With the multitude of scriptures dealing with forgiveness, it is interesting that you believe this one does not apply to us.

That seems rather arbitrary to me. Very selective.




Thats funny. Isn't that what I and a bunch of other people were saying about you and your Luke 17:34-36 homosexual thread?

Funny how when it fits your agenda, you support using scripture arbitrarily (wrongly I may ad), and when your agenda isn't supported, the rest of us are Pharisee.

Another clear sign... Mark and avoid.


2 Peter 2:1-3 (NKJV)

But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.


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Christiaan

 2010/7/5 22:52Profile









 Re: Another Thread, Please.

Miccah, I've said several times I will be more than happy to discuss the other passages in another thread.

My only stipulation is that we keep it to one passage per thread. That keeps the conversation focused and coherent.

And if we could discuss only one passage, until that discussion seems more or less exhausted, that would be nice, too.

I think those are reasonable requests.

And one other request, a personal one. I have already been warned repeatedly that my soul is in jeopardy, and that I am deceiving others with my false teaching.

Please assume that I already understand your genuine heartfelt concerns. If we could stick with discussing the passage in question, that would be nice.

Or if you still prefer to "mark and avoid," that's up to you. But I am willing to discuss the other passages, one at a time.

 2010/7/5 23:10
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Ronald,

When you speak against the word of the Lord, you will be challanged. When you contradict yourself, you will be challanged. When you you twist scripture in order to deceive others, you will be challanged. When you call others out for the same exact thing that you do, you will be challanged. When you say that the teachings and the Word of the Lord is "absurd" you will be challanged.

Ronald, I fear for your soul greatly. The Lord has used many on Sermonindex to show you your errors, and you refuse to budge. I decern that you are here for reasons other then truth, and you have proven such through your own written words.

But what I truly fear is the Lord. I will stand before Him on judgement day. I will give account on how I dealt with everything, including you. I will also give account about staying quite when you are spreading lies about the Lord. Others can believe you if they wish, to their own destruction, but they will have to do it through my protest.

Back when I was unsaved, I'm sure that we would have been good friends. I pray that the Lord shows you the errors of your ways, and we can be friends for eternity together, before our Lord. Until the truth resides in you, and you cease teaching your errors as truth, we will be as light and darkness.


_________________
Christiaan

 2010/7/6 0:14Profile
Goldminer
Member



Joined: 2006/11/7
Posts: 1178
Alabama

 Re: forgiving sins

First of all this is what the word says about what was received in the upper room:

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.

This promise holds true for all believers today, not just for a select few.

There were many more than just the twelve in the upper room on the day of pentecost. Is God still calling men. The promise is for as many as the Lord our God shall call. Can we deny that men are still being called?

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Now about remmitting and retaining sins. I have had this much in my thoughts lately as well. Here is what the Lord showed me:

Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

2Ti 4:16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all [men] forsook me: [I pray God] that it may not be laid to their charge.

Jhn 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.

Vines Dictionary says of this word remit:
signifies "to send away, set free;" also "to let alone,"

Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

We certainly have the power to forgive sins, if we don't we have the consequences stated here in Matthew 6:15. Not the sort of thing we need to be disobedient to.

1Jo 4:17 ¶ Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19 We love him, because he first loved us.
20 ¶ If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Luk 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
Luk 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

This is what that word debtors means in the Strongs Concordence in the greek:

1) one who owes another, a debtor

a) one held by some obligation, bound by some duty

b) one who has not yet made amends to whom he has injured:

1) one who owes God penalty or whom God can demand punishment as something due, i.e. a sinner

Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Jesus, our example, forgave sins and riled up the religious folks of His day while he walked the earth. He has told us to go and do likewise. When we forgive those who sin against us, we are following His command and those sins are forgiven.


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KLC

 2010/7/6 0:16Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

-Quote-Ronald
9) We have a difficult time realizing that God gave us the same authority to forgive sins--even in the absence of people's repentance.

10) If I am interacting with someone living in sin, I forgive them, and focus on loving them. I don't focus on "getting them to repent."

11) Don't get me wrong. Repentance is important. But I leave the timing and the content of people's sanctification to God. I don't determine the timing and the content of people's sanctification.

12) I find I have my hands full with my own sanctification and repentance, without taking responsibility for other people's sanctification and repentance.

13) God may give other people the ministry of calling people to repentance. Remember, there is a diversity of gifts and callings. Not all of us are called to do the same thing.
-Quote-

Some of your writing is agreeable (Satan can also disguise himself as an angel of light) but after also reading another thread where you misrepresented Jesus by implying that He approves of what is an abomination in his sight. I have applied to you on this thread as you seem to have no fear in approving what God does not approve.

There is only one Mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus (1 Tim. 2:5-6). No other man has ever been worthy to give His life as a ransom for others. No other ransom has ever been acceptable to God. Christ Jesus alone is worthy and acceptable to die as a ransom for someone else. He alone is the Perfect Man. Therefore...
only Christ can forgive and judge sins.

John 20:23 (KJV) Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

There are two things we can know for sure about its meaning.

No man can forgive another man's sins.

Believers can proclaim that a man's sins are forgiven if he receives Christ (John 1:12).
Believers can also proclaim that a man's sins are not forgiven if he does not receive Christ.

The authority that Jesus gives is through the power of the Holy Spirit so therefore the apostle can only speak and do as the Spirit leads him. The true apostle will not speak what the Lord didn’t reveal to his spirit as being acceptable.

We must forgive others quickly when they wrong us in any way but no one has the authority to forgive sins against God but only God himself. We can only declare what He has told us concerning the good news to everyone concerning repentance and remission of sins through the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Lord after having trampled on the blood of His Son by sinning willfully and that also means to tell someone else their sins are forgiven when they are still sinning willfully. One is trampling on the blood of Christ when you sin willfully and how much worse do you thing it will be to those who tell someone their sins are forgiven who are still sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth.

Hebrews 10:26-31 (KJV) 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (ESV) 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Be not high-minded but fear God and make sure we don’t tell someone that Jesus approves of something that is an abomination in his sight.

Blessings in Christ!






 2010/7/6 0:58Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
It sounds as though you're saying that this scripture doesn't apply to us today. I'm doing my best to hear Christ's words and obey them, building my house on a rock.

With the multitude of scriptures dealing with forgiveness, it is interesting that you believe this one does not apply to us.



You cannot arbitrarily take verses of scripture and 'claim' them. This passage of scripture has a historic time and space context with unique individuals. It was never repeated. If you try to 'claim' such powers you it will result in powerful self-deception.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/6 3:58Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Jesus, our example, forgave sins and riled up the religious folks of His day while he walked the earth. He has told us to go and do likewise. When we forgive those who sin against us, we are following His command and those sins are forgiven.



this is certainly true and important. However our earlier references to the upper room relate to the time after his resurrection but before he ascended into heaven. It is not particular sins against myself that are under consideration here but rather some kind of general authority.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/6 4:04Profile
EverestoSama
Member



Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re:

Again Philologos, you seem to be confirming all the thoughts that I had in my mind about this time and passage. Thank you very much for your input here so far (and to the other brothers and sisters who have taken their time to discuss this as well).

 2010/7/6 5:32Profile









 Re: John 20:23

Could this mean,if we forgive the sin that has been done
aginst us ..that the Lord will release that person of that peticular sin.If we will have mercy then He will have mercy?
By the way ,I don't have a nick-name . Elizabeth

 2010/7/6 9:42





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