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Sound like Travis and i come from the same era; but i still listen to Larry Norman, Randy Stonehill, Talbot Brothers, Ressurection Band, Maranatha, Keith Green, 2nd Chapter of Acts, Barry McGuire, Phil Keaggy and the ones he mentions too. (BTW, KUTLESS, Sanctus Real, Mac Powell (3rd Day), Disciple and these 'younger' genre music types are excellent for perhaps not only the younger crowd, but the young at heart as well. i favor KUTLESS.)

Nashville's second name is Music City, and living in Hendersonville, there was an inundation of music, being where many musicians and their children lived. I went to school with alot of them. (Before Mike Card was a name, before he ever went to Western Kentucky U, when he wasn't singing, he and i would spend time at a certain table at 'Koinonia' coffeehouse in Nashville discussing particularly "COVENANT", Abraham, Jesus and Grace. i love his music and Jesus shining out from this brother...and friend had trouble pulling us out of discussions over the scriptures.)

Music was an added anchor in this life as well, like twayneb, gently prodding me towards the straight and narrow.

It's not the style that is the issue. The Wesley brothers took bar-room tunes and changed the lyrics. The first hymnals are a result of 4 part harmony barbershop quartets that would go to churches, selling various hymn-books through singing the songs their company promoted.
(If you listen to Middle Eastern music, you will get an idea of what is kosher. To some it can sound like something from a hindi temple or the like, yet this type music is what the Psalms were and are still set to.)

Generally, what one has cultured themselves to consider normal is what that person will think is normal and right.

The issue is that music moves the emotions, and if it doesn't, it is not going to move you one way or the other. (A person will never do anything they do not feel like doing.)The question need be asked, where are your childs's emotions moved listening to a certain music? Is it in worship to God or is it something else? Watch the way they act when they listen to their favorite music, and ask alot of questions.

Some think music is the problem, but the problem is in what led up to a person listening to a certain genre of music. Music is an outward expression of inward feelings and attitudes previously established.

As well, the spirit of the music listened to is expressed through the one(s) who sing(s) and play(s). The lifestyles of the musicians can tell alot about the potential effects of their music, or even the spirit behind it.

If your child's emphasis in listening is in any way towards glorifying God, who created ALL THINGS for His good pleasure, they will themselves honor God in their decisions as to what should and should not be.

Forcing compliance in anything tends to foster rebellion if children are in any way at odds with parental 'demands'. i could tell you horror story after horror story of parents who made their children do everything right, and the final result is alienation. Show them consequences of going the wrong way, and then tell them the right thing to do (from the scriptures) and God's promises for doing this.

(My daughter's talk to me alot about music, culture, attitudes, and the like as to how it fits in or not with the Faith they live relative to Biblical admonitions.. but we started talking with each them before they were ever out of the womb.)

This is all food for thought with one final comment to summarize:

Music, more than most everything else, was a main key God used in this life in steering me back towards Him when i was drifting. It helped to set this head, through feelings in my heart towards God. People often forget what a person says, yet a song will ring through consciousness even after the words from sermon or script are forgotten.

Acts 20:32

edited: grammar and spelling

 2010/6/21 23:17

Joined: 2009/8/31
Posts: 416
Ohio USA


This is from the Bible Broadcasting Network radio stations.

Question : The idols are different but the results are the same.

Answer :


"The idols are different but the results are the same."

The "worship wars" are beating the drums throughout the church today. This isn't new. Repeatedly in the Old Testament God judged His people for false worship. Exodus 32 says they were punished for both worshipping a false god and worshipping God falsely. In John 4, Jesus shared with the woman at the well the true principles of worship. It was not the physical location, but rather the spiritual condition of the person.

In all the "worship wars," music is the battleground. Many church services begin with a long period of "praise and worship," as if this is worship, and the rest of the service is something else. This is not new. In Exodus 32:4-6, Israel had come to the place where God was going to personally give them His Word. They missed it. Their self-appointed "worship leader" made a golden calf, called it god, rocked out the music, added dancing and eventually immorality, and called it worship. This led the people into God's judgment. It was an abomination to God. Does this have any of the contemporary flavor? Can it be found in this "worship war" of music and dance today? Aaron (the first worship leader) led the people in dance and music to worship in Egypt's style and turned their hearts from the eternal God to Egypt's golden idol. The idols are different, but the results are the same. The absence of the leader opened the door to perverted worship. Perhaps this should be a warning to the leadership in the church today. Maybe there is cause for alarm.

Ron Owens in his book, Return To Worship, talks of "the rise of the chorus and the death of the hymn." We are stealing from this generation our greatest heritage and our greatest teaching tool. Martin Luther used the power of hymns as he sent out singing groups to teach the people doctrine (Colossians 3:16) which played a great part in the Reformation. We still sing his great hymns 500 years later.

Isaac Watts wrote 875 hymns 250 years ago. Many, like "When I Survey The Wondrous Cross,"are in our hymnals. Charles Wesley gave us hundreds of hymns, like "O For A Thousand Tongues To Sing." John Newton, the converted slave trader, gave us "Amazing Grace." The longevity of these hymns in the Church has been the bedrock of much of the indelible learning of doctrine. Yes, there have been many hymns written in the past hundred years that are wonderful as well. The great concern is that a pastor or worship leader may close the hymn book and steal our greatest tool for teaching the Truth to the next generation. Can we sing some choruses? Of course, we can. But it is like serving the appetizer and forgetting the main course if we neglect the hymns. In time, we will find a famine in the land for the Word of God.

This is one reason BBN shares the great hymns daily. It will nourish you because it is God's will as seen in Ephesians 5:17-20. It is the will of the Lord to sing hymns.

- Lowell Davey, President of BBN


 2010/6/21 23:49Profile

Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2076

 Re: ...concerning CCM


An evil resides in the professed camp of the Lord so gross in its imprudence that the most shortsighted can hardly fail to notice it. During the past few years it has developed at an abnormal rate evil for evil. It has worked like leaven until the whole lump ferments. The devil has seldom done a more clever thing than hinting to the Church that part of their mission is to provide entertainment for the people, with a view to winning them. From speaking out as the Puritans did, the Church has gradually toned down her testimony, then winked at and excused the frivolities of the day. Then she tolerated them in her borders. Now she has adopted them under the plea of reaching the masses.

My first contention is that providing amusement for the people is nowhere spoken of in the Scriptures as a function of the Church. If it is a Christian work why did not Christ speak of it? "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature." That is clear enough. So it would have been if He has added, "and provide amusement for those who do not relish the gospel" No such words, however, are to be found. It did not seem to occur to Him. Then again, "He gave some apostles, some prophets, some pastors and teachers, for the work of the ministry." Where do entertainers come in? The Holy Spirit is silent concerning them. Were the prophets persecuted because they amused the people or because they refused? The concert has no martyr roll.

Again, providing amusement is in direct antagonism to the teaching and life of Christ and all His apostles. What was the attitude of the Church to the world? "Ye are the salt," not sugar candy—something the world will spite out, not swallow. Short and sharp was the utterance, "Let the dead bury their dead." He was in awful earnestness!

Had Christ introduced more of the bright and pleasant elements into His mission, He would have been more popular when they went back, because of the searching nature of His teaching. I do not hear Him say, "Run after these people, Peter, and tell them we will have a different style of service tomorrow, something short and attractive with little preaching. We will have a pleasant evening for the people. Tell them they will be sure to enjoy it. Be quick, Peter, we must get the people somehow!" Jesus pitied sinners, sighed and wept over them, but never sought to amuse them. In vain will the Epistles be searched to find any trace of the gospel amusement. Their message is, "Come out, keep out, keep clean out!" Anything approaching fooling is conspicuous by its absence. They had boundless confidence in the gospel and employed no other weapon.

After Peter and John were locked up for preaching, the Church had a prayer meeting, but they did not pray, "Lord grant Thy servants that by a wise and discriminating use of innocent recreation we may show these people how happy we are." If they ceased not for preaching Christ, they had not time for arranging entertainments. Scattered by persecution, they went everywhere preaching the gospel.

They "turned the world upside down." That is the difference! Lord, clear the Church of all the rot and rubbish the devil has imposed on her and bring us back to apostolic methods.

Lastly, the mission of amusement fails to affect the end desired. It works havoc among young converts. Let the careless and scoffers, who thank God because the Church met them halfway, speak and testify. Let the heavy-laden who found peace through the concert not keep silent! Let the drunkard to whom the dramatic entertainment has been God's link in the chain of their conversion, stand up! There are none to answer. The mission of amusement produces no converts. The need of the hour for today's ministry is believing scholarship joined with earnest spirituality, the one springing from the other as fruit from the root. The need is biblical doctrine, so understood and felt, that it sets men on fire. (taken from Entertainment in the Church by C.H. Spurgeon)

Contending for the faith against those who should be.


 2010/6/21 23:49Profile

Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7497


In preparation to teaching 1 Timothy 4 this coming Lord's Day,I did a search on the web about fables. Exactly what are they? One source suggested that one should not use any other means then absolute truth to present the gospel. It should not be adorned with fiction, myths which raises some disturbing questions - what about "The Shack"? "Chronicles of Narnia"?

Anyway, the reason I brought this up is what you said:

" The devil has seldom done a more clever thing than hinting to the Church that part of their mission is to provide entertainment for the people, with a view to winning them. From speaking out as the Puritans did, the Church has gradually toned down her testimony, then winked at and excused the frivolities of the day. Then she tolerated them in her borders. Now she has adopted them under the plea of reaching the masses."


"Jesus pitied sinners, sighed and wept over them, but never sought to amuse them. In vain will the Epistles be searched to find any trace of the gospel amusement. Their message is, "Come out, keep out, keep clean out!" Anything approaching fooling is conspicuous by its absence. They had boundless confidence in the gospel and employed no other weapon."

The issue is as I see it: what tools are we using to present the gospel? Is it one that entertains?

Years ago at the Crises Pregnancy Center I asked my [single] clients why they go to church? They obviously were not godly girls because they were living in sin but considered themselves Christians. The response was always the same. They thought a while and then came up with this reason "it is because of the music." For some this reason would be a good enough reason to continue in this entertainment mode. But does it produce godliness? At CPC we never saw nor heard any evidence of it. (Actually, if you want to know what is really going on in the churches just work at a CPC for a will discover things that will grieve you to no end.)

Some abstinence ministries made videos to appeal to youth, teaching the benefits of chastity. We previewed them. Once again they used worldly music to promote their idea. One volunteer responded that she would never want her children to see that video! The music, dance was so frightful...

People no longer depend on the power of the Spirit in winning souls so they must use other worldly means to attract folks to the gospel. In the meantime, they are diluting it. Jesus and the apostles kept it simple and the Holy Spirit did wonders.

Lesson here somewhere for us moderns.

Sandra Miller

 2010/6/22 6:11Profile

Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC


Just food for thought, but Keith Green sang a song called, "The Prodigal Son." For those of you who have heard it, do you think the song was of God? Is it anointed?

What would you do if I told you he wrote that song while he was still unsaved and lost? The first time he played it was in a bar. What would you say if I told you I think it was one of the most anointed songs he ever wrote?

Jimmy H

 2010/6/22 11:50Profile

Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC


I think when it comes to Christian music, the only thing that needs to be ask is: is the believer edified by what they are hearing and singing? Does it in anyway build them up and draw them closer to God? If so, then in my opinion, that is all that matters.

If we can sanctify meat and drink by means of the word of God and prayer as Paul says, then surely we can take a song and sanctify it as well, even if the motives of the musician are impure. Surely we can redeem it for ourselves. Just as we can redeem meat and drink offered to idols, and sanctify it.

While I prefer to listen to musicians who seem obviously in touch with the Lord, and are Keith Green like in their motives, that doesn't mean I don't listen to songs written by people who appear to be driven by other motives.

People like to act like Southern Gospel is especially sanctified music. But I can tell you from having seen him and listened to hundreds of songs, Bill Gaither, and many that run in those circles are just as carnal as the latest up and coming talent in CCM.

In the end, all that matters is that if the music has an edifying value to it, that you sanctify it and make it your own. Remember songs like "The Anchor Holds" by Ray Boltz? The same Ray Boltz who came out of the closet recently, and admitted he's been struggling with homosexuality forever? How many of us have not been blessed by that song, nevermind the carnality Boltz was caught up in.

Jimmy H

 2010/6/22 12:04Profile


Savannah... where did you get that article? Sandy Patti and David Meece? They were popular 30 years ago. Need to get something a little more up to date. Also, I've seen those testimonies from kids in other articles. I think they are false because no 14 or 15 yr old kid uses grammar and big words like that (unless they were home schooled). I'm quite well convinced they were made up by the guy who wrote the article... and apparently I am not the only person who noticed that. Others have commented on that on the internet.

Anyway... I agree with King Jimmy almost 100%.

If your kid is into rap music (which I am NOT... my kids are into hip-hop) I highly recommend the guys who record for Cross Movement Records. Listening to those guys will give you child a theological education he/she won't get anywhere else. The 116 Clique put out a CD called 13 Letters a few years ago that is an overview of the Pauline Epistles... listen and learn from that CD and you might qualify for a seminary degree. These are artist who point their audience to Christ, not themselves.

And yet... some believers will call it evil.

But don't misunderstand me. I have issues with the Christian music INDUSTRY. (Cross Movement is not part of the "industry"). I watched the Dove Awards this year, talk about idolatry. The whole premise of the thing is unscriptural, dont ya think? And you have to be careful because a lot of Christian music is doctrinally unsound... or at least flakey.

I just don't think anyone can make a blanket statement about Christian music stylistically. To do so is to be ignorant, and is also condemning something that God does actually play a part in with some of it.

My recommendation is to stay away from the hype and glorfication of artists.

I also recommend whole heartidly a band called ApologetiX. They take secular rock hits and turn them into theological lessons from the Bible. My kids have learned a lot listening to these guys. I've actually met them and they are the real deal... a love and zeal for the Lord not found in a lot of regular Christian music artists.


 2010/6/22 12:31

Joined: 2006/9/11
Posts: 294
North Pole, Alaska


Consider the following lyrics from Shai Linne's song Atonement Q&A featuring Stephen the Levite:

Verse 1

Who is God? God is the universe’s Creator

And Sustainer plus the only Savior, there is no one greater

He triune, holy, omnipotent, omniscient, absolute

Loving, sovereign and righteous are a few of His attributes

How do we know this? Well, we know this from the Bible

Where God has revealed Himself- anything else is just an idol

What’s the Bible about? Man’s complete ruin in sin

And what God has done in Christ to bring us to Him again

What is sin? Sin is the breaking of God’s law

Plus our condition, which means from birth we all got flaws

What’s the result? The result is by nature we’re God’s enemies

And must pay the penalty unless God provides the remedy

What the remedy? The remedy is the cross of Christ

Where He suffered all the strikes for the lawless type

I’ve been rescued by the Lamb, I’m convinced that He’s risen

And blessed is the man whose sins are forgiven!


Just fall back, and with the eyes of faith

Behold the beauty of surprising grace

Because the Lamb has died, third day He had to rise

He’s magnified- God’s wrath is satisfied

Just fall back- there’s an atonement now

The cross of Christ is holy ground

Because the Lamb has died, third day He had to rise

He’s magnified- God’s wrath is satisfied

Verse 2

Regeneration- the Holy Spirit’s true work in His love

To the elect, who receive new birth from above

Expiation- expiation means God’s removed my filthiness

The old testament type was the goat into the wilderness

Redemption- we’ve been freed from slavery to sin

And His very own blood is the price He paid, my friend

Propitiation- Propitiation means since the Lamb has died

His work is finished- God’s wrath is satisfied

Adoption- adoption means God is now my Father

I got the hottest Poppa and by the Spirit holler Abba

Reconciliation means there’s no more enmity

God is now a friend to me, we’re no longer enemies

Justification- God declares us righteous

Sanctification- we’re being made into His likeness

Glorification- that’s what happens at the finish

When God conforms believers perfectly to Christ’s image!


Verse 3

God’s grace is magnificent, He slayed His innocent

Son- through faith and repentance we get the benefits

What is faith? Faith is a gift from God- when we receive this

We trust and treasure the person and finished work of Jesus

Repentance? Repentance is turning from your sin

And trusting Christ as the Spirit cleanses you within

What is grace? Oh, grace is unmerited favor

Our inheritance major ‘cause we cherish the Savior

Right, and if I may quote again, we were doomed with Satan

But believers get Jesus’ righteousness through imputation

Imputation? God takes Jesus’ righteousness amount

Through faith He credits it into the Christian’s account

Anything else? Well, I guess this overview must suffice

But none of this is possible apart from union with Christ

And finally, once you know the ways of the Lord than the

only thing that you can say is Soli Deo Gloria!

***If you didn't read each line, go back and read it again. And again. How many of our kids can even explain the theology behind their belief? Shai Linne is with Lampmode records, another independant organization that exists to exposit the gospel through hip hop.

 2010/6/22 13:16Profile


Wow, jlosinski... thats just evil... (I'm kidding, of course)

Praise God for these young black men who are bringing theology to a new generation of kids who's parents are busy seeking their "Best Life Now", or doing their "40 Days of Purpose".


 2010/6/22 13:18

Joined: 2004/5/17
Posts: 235


Have any of you heard Paul Washer's message to Reformed rappers? Thoughts?

Swimmer - Are you still there?



 2010/6/22 19:42Profile

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