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twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Alive-to-God

Quote:
I have tremendous difficulty with the idea that when the English translates the Greek to 'emptied', it means His DIVINITY drained out of Him in the way some of you seem to think (or, the way you write, seems to read).



I don't think it means that He emptied Himself of His obvious position as God (positional divinity I guess one could say?). He never became "not God". But He emptied Himself of divine privilege and ability. He operated on this earth as 100% man empowered by the Holy Spirit. Yet, He was still God, He was still divinity. His identity did not change, but His "form" did.

I am reminded of the woman with the issue of blood. When she touched the hem of His garment in faith, He perceived that something had transpired in the Spirit, but He did not know who it was who touched Him. His question to that effect was not rhetorical, it was genuine. Had He retained divine privilege, had He been operating as God in the earth, He would have known who touched Him. But outside of a word of knowledge by the Holy Spirit (gifts of the Spirit) He could not know. So, He asked the question.


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Travis

 2010/6/13 9:19Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I am reminded of the woman with the issue of blood. When she touched the hem of His garment in faith, He perceived that something had transpired in the Spirit, but He did not know who it was who touched Him. His question to that effect was not rhetorical, it was genuine. Had He retained divine privilege, had He been operating as God in the earth, He would have known who touched Him. But outside of a word of knowledge by the Holy Spirit (gifts of the Spirit) He could not know. So, He asked the question.





Very good point. There are several examples in the scriptures like this. For example, Christ did not know the time of His return...only the father knew. There were also time where the "power to heal" was present with him. Obviously that implies that there where other times when the power was not present. He was definitely a man operating under the power of God's Spirit.

For some reason though, today it's almost blasphemous to talk about the humanity of Christ and the fact that there were things Christ did not know unless the Spirit gave him the knowledge. People somehow thing this is robbing God of His glory or denying who He is. Yet it's the truth of scripture.

 2010/6/13 11:57









 Re: Sinlessness of Christ

Hi Travis,

I think I know the point you are making, but I'm uncomfortable with the way it is explained, because if

Quote:
He never became "not God".

then He never became not divine, either.

He was not limited by being a whole man - Word made Flesh - made in the image of God, as well as being God, but He disowned His divinity in the same way as we are to disown our personal lives and follow Him, being crucified with Him. He showed us what a crucified life looks like.

At the time though, He was the Resurrection and the Life, even although He had not yet died or been resurrected. I am far more comfortable with all the mystery of His revelation of Himself, than with the choice of wording you (and others) have offered me.

If, as you imply, His only 'divinity' was the fullness of the Holy Spirit, then our power to become the sons of God - to 'receive the gift, and Giver, too' (C Wesley), ought to make us as wholly divine as He was. But that most certainly is not the case.

Do you see what I'm getting at.... ? The minimisation of God incarnate, to suit our theologies; because nowhere in the New Testament is there a statement which even vaguely hints that Christ's divinity ceased, even temporarily - however He chose to reveal that to us. John 8:58, Matt 1:21, 22, 23.

I think also, it's important to retain the context of what Paul was conveying in Phil 2, and not try to create a whole doctrine out of one verse lifted way off the page.

Sorry, I'm still short of time online. Won't be back till later this week.

Love to you all. :-)

 2010/6/15 13:35
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re: Sinlessness of Christ

Alive-to-God:

Hmmm! Trying to figure out if we have a semantics issue or if there is really a difference in how we see this.

I agree, He never became "not divine". But He emptied Himself of divine right and privilege. He knew who He was, but He did not operate in that capacity with respect to the omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence that He had before His incarnation. In fact, in John 17:5 Jesus speaks to the Father about His regaining that glory that He had before He became a man. A practical way to look at this is to look at examples from His earthly ministry. His divine nature was omniscient, yet He did not know who touched Him in the crowd. His divine nature was omnipotent, yet the lack of faith of those in Nazereth prevented Him from performing miracles other than that He healed a few sick folk. He was bound by every limitation that you or I am as a human being. Yet He operated in the power of the Holy Spirit.

I don't think the fact that we too can operate in the power of the Holy Spirit makes us divine. It makes us full of, baptized in, saturated with, the divine nature of God. 2 Peter 1:3-4. He is God, we are humans who can be full of the Spirit of God. Yet for 33 years He became fully as we are and partook of our humanity, our nature if you will (not to be confused with the religious term "sin nature").

It seems to me that Philippians 2:6-8 and Hebrews 2:16-18 speak of this casting off of divine privilege and taking on of humanity pretty clearly. In fact, Hebrews sets the upper limit of His operation on earth as the nature of angels and says that He did not stoop only to that level, but became fully human. I agree that nowhere does scripture say He gave up His place as God, i.e., gave up His position as divinity. But He did give up divine privilege (I am not sure I have a better word than privilege to describe this). His power to work miracles did not come from a divine right or privilege, but rather from the operation of the Holy Spirit in Him. This is how we can partake of the divine nature ourselves as stated in 2 Peter 1:3-4. Not because we "become divine", but because now the comforter has been sent to indwell us in the same way that He indwelt Christ.

Not sure if that made things better or worse, but I think it vitally important if we are to understand the fullness of the power of the Holy Spirit that God desires us to walk in. We are to do the same works that Jesus did and greater works according to John 14. There is only one way this can happen. It must be that we are filled with a power that is not our own. It must be that we are filled with the same Holy Spirit that Christ was filled with. We can do what He did because we can be filled with the same power that He was filled with.


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Travis

 2010/6/15 17:11Profile









 Re: Sinnlessness of Christ


Hello Travis :-) Thanks for your patience...

First, let me quote the end of John 17 (YLT) 22 `And I, the glory that thou hast given to me, have given to them, that they may be one as we are one; 23 I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be perfected into one, and that the world may know that Thou didst send me, and didst love them as Thou didst love me. 24 `Father, those whom Thou hast given to me, I will that where I am they also may be with me, that they may behold my glory that Thou didst give to me, because Thou didst love me before the foundation of the world.

Quote:
Not sure if that made things better or worse, but I think it vitally important if we are to understand the fullness of the power of the Holy Spirit that God desires us to walk in. We are to do the same works that Jesus did and greater works according to John 14. There is only one way this can happen. It must be that we are filled with a power that is not our own. It must be that we are filled with the same Holy Spirit that Christ was filled with. We can do what He did because we can be filled with the same power that He was filled with.



I agree WHOLEheartedly that we are do the works He did, and greater, and that it must be by the power of the Holy Spirit, but that makes us 'in Christ' and 'He' and 'the Father' in us. Christ clearly said 'I and my Father are one'. I'm just resisting steadfastly, the notion WE can define the terms of the Word made Flesh, better than scripture.

John 17:5 does not specifically refer to His manhood, and is completely compatible with 'before Abraham was, I Am', which got Him into so much trouble with unbelieving Jews.

Regarding He didn't know who had touched him in the crowd, He had no need to ask His Father, because He was surrounded with people who had seen the event. But do we know how He knew the name of the widow to whom Elijah had been sent? Or, which disciples to call? (and so on).

I believe Jesus came and suffered as a man, not because God had not suffered already, but to be seen by so many men that their testimony would have some weight. We could not, as humans, suffer, if God in whose image we are made, cannot suffer - or had not suffered (with respect to eternity).

The other major difference between Christ and us, is that His flesh did not have to die. It did die, but it was that Flesh which did not see corruption. Whereas ours will have to be raised from corruption into incorruption, one day; mortality will put on immortality (and so on).

I will think some more about what you're saying. Of course I accept there were physical limitations on Christ's physical presence amongst men, but.... why cannot He be the fully divine God while exercising those limitations?

 2010/6/15 18:24
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Regarding He didn't know who had touched him in the crowd, He had no need to ask His Father, because He was surrounded with people who had seen the event. But do we know how He knew the name of the widow to whom Elijah had been sent? Or, which disciples to call? (and so on).



I think maybe John 14:10 and John 5:19, John 5:30, John 8:28 have some bearing on this. It is also interesting to note that Jesus did no miracles until after He was filled with the Holy Spirit. It is also interesting to look at the 9 gifts of the Spirit in 1 Cor. 12 and then look for instances of each of these in Jesus life. For example, Jesus knowing that the woman at the well had 5 husbands previously and was living with the man she was not married to was the operation of the gift of the word of knowledge. I have known things about people through the Holy Spirit in ministry situations through this manifestation of the Holy Spirit. I would say that all of the miracles that He performed were accomplished through the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit. To me that is absolutely exciting because it means that I have that same power resident in me if I am baptized in the Holy Spirit. Jesus said the comforter was WITH the disciples, but would be IN them. With in that Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit and was with them, and later He would send the comforter. In fact, He said it was needful that He leave bodily so that the comforter could be sent.


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Travis

 2010/6/15 18:40Profile
JB1968
Member



Joined: 2009/8/31
Posts: 416
Ohio USA

 Re:

It seems to be really hard to explain the nature of Christ. "Fully man, yet fully God". Fully man, yet without sin. Here we see sin does not reside in our bodies as some teach. His nature is pure, our is fallen. He came to redeem us from our fallen nature and to purify us (Acts 15:8-9).
Fully God, therefore without sin. Because He is God, He could not sin. Because He is man, He is surrounded with the potential of sin. But because He is God,... It is something that is almost impossible to understand and explain. I Tim. 3:16 helps.


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James

 2010/6/15 23:03Profile









 Re: Sinlessness of Christ

Hi Travis,

I understand completely that the Holy Spirit enables us to do things Christ did - because He came to restore the likeness of God, in man.

But that doesn't explain why He caused such a stir even before His baptism - His baptism which, you will recall, John the Baptist also understood He did not need.

Jesus did not become able to 'not sin' (and therefore, to do His Father's will), only because of the power of the Holy Spirit (as we do). He was able to 'not sin' - all through His life before as well as after His baptism.

I would suggest there must have been other ways in which He was different, which are not noted in scripture for us; Psa 22:9. Or, perhaps they are prophetically noted? We forget there was no New Testament when the disciples were evangelising, but Jesus fulfilled far more than they could understand.

These verses point towards that: Luke 2:19, Luke 2:40, 46, 47, 48 And when they saw him, they were amazed; Luke 2:52

Thanks again for the dialogue.

 2010/6/16 9:37
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
But that doesn't explain why He caused such a stir even before His baptism - His baptism which, you will recall, John the Baptist also understood He did not need.



Actually, Jesus stated explicitly that it was necessary. I am not so sure John felt it not necessary as much as he felt himself unworthy. Jesus straightened that out really quickly.

I don't think anyone would claim that the grace of God was not on Jesus in a very special way. As you noted Luke 2:40. It is not an all or nothing proposition. Jesus was anointed with the oil of gladness above all of his fellows right? In that respect I would agree that he was different in many ways. Absolutely agree with you there. It is just that He did not operate out of His position as the son of God, but rather operated as the son of man filled with the power of God through the Holy Spirit. (It just occurs to me that I keep repeating myself. That is bound to drive you crazy. Sorry.)

Well, must study. God bless you.


_________________
Travis

 2010/6/16 19:49Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

If Jesus Christ had not divested Himself of equality with God, no man could have looked upon Him without death. But, "if you have seen Me you have seen the Father?" He simply became a Man, all Man, with the express image of God the Father manifested by His presence as the express image of God, that we might look upon Him and see what God intended from before the beginning of the earth, what is that?

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Ephesians 1:4
Verse 4. According as. The importance of this verse will render proper a somewhat minute examination of the words and phrases of which it is composed. The general sense of the passage is, that these blessings pertaining to heaven were bestowed upon Christians in accordance with an eternal purpose. They were not conferred by chance or hap-hazard. They were the result of intention and design on the part of God. Their value was greatly enhanced from the fact that God had designed from all eternity to bestow them, and that they come to us as the result of his everlasting plan. It was not a recent plan; it was not an after-thought; it was not by mere chance; it was not by caprice; it was the fruit of an eternal counsel. Those blessings had all the value, and all the assurance of permanency, which must result from that fact. The phrase "according as" kaqwV--implies that these blessings were in conformity with that eternal plan, and have flowed to us as the expression of that plan. They are limited by that purpose, for it marks and measures all. It was as God had chosen that it should be, and had appointed in his eternal purpose.
He hath chosen us. The word "us" here shows that the apostle had reference to individuals, and not to communities. It includes Paul himself as one of the "chosen," and those whom he addressed--the mingled Gentile and Jewish converts in Ephesus. That it must refer to individuals is clear. Of no community, as such, can it be said, that it was "chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy." It is not true of the Gentile world as such, nor of any one of the nations making up the Gentile world. The word rendered here "hath chosen" - exelexato--is from a word meaning to lay out together, (Passow,) to choose out, to select. It has the idea of making a choice or selection among different objects or things. It is applied to things, as in Lu 10:42. "Mary hath chosen that good part;"--she has made a choice, or selection of it, or has shown a preference for it. 1Co 1:27: "God hath chosen the foolish things of the world ;" he has preferred to make use of them among all the conceivable things which might have been employed "to confound the wise." Comp. Ac 1:2; 6:5; 15:22,25. It denotes to choose out with the accessary idea of kindness or favour. Mr 13:20. "For the elect's sake whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days." Joh 13:18, "I know whom I have chosen." Ac 13:17. "The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers;" that is, selected them from the nations to accomplish important purposes. This is evidently the sense of the word in the passage before us. It means to make a selection or choice, with the idea of favour or love, and with a view to impart important benefits on those whom he chose. The idea of making some distinction between them and others, is essential to a correct understanding of the passage-- since there can be no choice where no such distinction is made. He who chooses one out of many things makes a difference, or evinces a preference--no matter what the ground or reason of his doing it may be. Whether this refers to communities and nations, or to individuals, still it is true that a distinction is made, or a preference given of one over another. It may be added, that so far as justice is concerned, it makes no difference whether it refers to nations or to individuals. If there is injustice in choosing an individual to favour, there cannot be less in choosing a nation--for a nation is nothing but a collection of individuals. Every objection which has ever been made to the doctrine of election as it relates to individuals, will apply with equal force to the choice of a nation to peculiar privileges. If a distinction is made, it may be made with as much propriety in respect to individuals as to nations.

In him. In Christ. The choice was not without reference to any means of saving them; it was not a mere purpose to bring a certain number to heaven; it was with reference to the mediation of the Redeemer, and his work. It was a purpose that they should be saved by him, and share the benefits of the atonement. The whole choice and purpose of salvation had reference to him, and out of him no one was chosen to life, and no one out of him will be saved. End

Only the Only Begotten Son of the Seed of the Father by the Holy Spirit, being fully man and fully God could accomplish this Plan God had already planned before Adam or even the earth was created as we know it now.

This is it, In Christ and The Same Seed of the Father, Jesus Christ, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory": Phillip


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Phillip

 2010/6/17 0:23Profile





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