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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Sour Wine

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flameoffire
Member



Joined: 2008/1/3
Posts: 189
Michigan

 Sour Wine

John 19:30

The wording of this verse makes the sour wine seem significant. I was wondering about the symbolic and spiritual significance of sour wine. I found some basic answers in the ESV Study Bible on Carm.org and Catholic Answers Forums, regarding prolonging Jesus life and easing His suffering, but I thought some of you might have deeper insight.


Matthew 27:48
Mark 15:36
Luke 23:36


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Jonathan

 2010/5/1 21:41Profile
mguldner
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Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860
Kansas

 Re: Sour Wine

In Psalms 69:21 we find there is mention of sour wine, and so the significance maybe Jesus fulfilling this foreshadow of prophecy.

In Isaiah 31:29-30 there are mention of the fathers eating Sour Grapes and the childrens teeth being on edge I believe this is a prophecy of the New Covenant noting the fact that everyone will be accountable for their own sins instead of the sins falling on the 3rd and 4th Generation as the Old Covenant did, by Jesus drinking the sour wine ie Sour grapes he took this aspect away from the New covenant making every man accountable only for their sins instead of the sins of their past generation.

I would look up the verses I gave and see if you see the same things I see.

God Bless,
Matthew


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Matthew Guldner

 2010/5/1 22:02Profile
flameoffire
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Joined: 2008/1/3
Posts: 189
Michigan

 Re:

Thank you,

Psalm 69 definitely seems to connect to messianic prophecy. The other verse must be a typo because there is no Isaiah 31:29! I'm assuming you meant Jeremiah 31:29, which is quite illuminating, especially since Jeremiah 31:31 points directly at the new covenant; however, it becomes complicated because Jesus refused the sour wine after tasting it, so he tasted the inheritance of sin through the cross and then rejected it or ended it? "It is finished" follows the tasting. Thank you. Let me know if you think this is a proper interpretation.


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Jonathan

 2010/5/1 22:23Profile
mguldner
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Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860
Kansas

 Re:

I apologize it is going to be Jeremiah not Isaiah.


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Matthew Guldner

 2010/5/1 22:33Profile
mguldner
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Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860
Kansas

 Re:

I think you are correct on the intrepretation if someone else knows further input would be appreciated by me as well, great question! You may also check out Ezekiel 18 gives an expanded thought on the Sour Grapes thing


*edited*


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Matthew Guldner

 2010/5/1 22:39Profile









 Re:

Never really thought beyond first impressions when reading that, however, the idea that pops up in this head when doing so is akin to what Matt says. That response seems right, however, those who do not take part in the (re)NEW(ed) COVENANT are seen suffering all sins of all others as well as their own (Rom. 5:12,15,16,17)

Sour wine (to me) represents the effects of sin on the human nature, because leaven (aka yeast / aka candida) and it's growth process actually does rivet whatever it effects with little holes, making deterioration quicker through oxidation, promoting further fermination.

[That is why people who drink regularly (and/or excessively) have a redness to them, the cells of their bodies suffering on a scale larger than the bodies ability to repair itself:little holes-their cells actually bleeding out through these holes made by the yeast laden alcohol.]

The sponge being riddled with holes already, and not bread, seems to say to me that this is what will remain of your body through the effects of sin: nothing.

This subject being brought up spurs me to look further. Anticipated are other replies. If none come, i'll search deeper.

Thanks,
g

"The kingdom then is not for weaklings, waverers, and compromisers... It is not for Balaam, the rich young ruler, Pilate, and Demas... It is not won by means of deferred prayers, unfulfilled promises, broken resolutions and hesitant testimonies. It is for strong and sturdy men like Joseph, Nathan, Elijah, Daniel, Mordecai, and Peter... Stephen... and Paul. And let us not forget such valiant women as Ruth, Deborah, Esther, and Lydia"
~William Hendrickson~

Heb. 11:6

It's all about faith: trusting reliant confidence in the only One who is forever Faithful and Truth, Lord Messiah King Jesus.

 2010/5/1 22:50
flameoffire
Member



Joined: 2008/1/3
Posts: 189
Michigan

 Re:

So Jesus never experienced the Genealogical inheritance of sin. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, and though He was born of the flesh, He did not inherit sin. Therefore if the connection can be made to sour grapes, the sour wine would reveal Jesus first encounter with inherited sin, which he rejects on the cross, right before death in fulfillment of breaking off the inheritance of sin. That said we must be careful to continue to realize that Jesus died with the burden of human sin upon Him.

This is fascinating, my only qualm is that the connection between sour grapes and sour wine is not direct. Sour grapes usually refers to unripe grapes, whereas sour wine is vinegar. The taste isn't the same.

On top of this, we can think about the nazarite vow, which excludes vinegar, although I'm not entirely sure how that connects.

I would be more sure if a stronger connection could be made between sour grapes and sour wine, though EDIT Jeremiah 31:29-31 makes a strong connection, two or three verses would be preferable.


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Jonathan

 2010/5/1 23:05Profile









 Re:

The bitterness of sour grapes comes from either/and/or

1) eating them when they are not quite ripe.
(the connotations of bitterness are too numerous to state here.)

2) not getting enough 'water"
(see all of IS. 55 re: water (and sustenance)/ Jn. 3:5

3)Lack of proper nutrients towards growth. / Jn 15


g

 2010/5/1 23:30
flameoffire
Member



Joined: 2008/1/3
Posts: 189
Michigan

 Re:

Thanks,

That list brings out some interesting points.

Tying these verses to John 15 and the vine and the branch is mind twisting.

I'm going to have to pray about these connections.

I'm fascinated by the possibilities here, but I would be uncomfortable teaching this openly with only one verse strongly or directly making the connection between the sour wine and inherited sin.

On a more basic level, Jesus fulfills what he says in Matthew 26:29 (and others) by spitting out the wine rather than drinking it.


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Jonathan

 2010/5/1 23:47Profile
wahanee
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Joined: 2010/4/30
Posts: 4


 Re: Sour Wine

While I'm sure "sour wine" is the term required, I would just point out that there are "degrees" of vinegar, and that a "vin aigre" might be a perfectly nice drink, if it is still closer to wine than to what we think of as vinegar.. I knew that he didn't drink it, but it is also my own personal understanding that sour wine is actually vinegar. I thought that they were trying to torture him even more by giving him vinegar and not to help him with his pain.

 2010/5/3 3:09Profile





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