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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : A can of worms

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ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4582


 Re:

Hi Phanetheus...

Quote:
From what has been examined (without taking notes-to give you an idea just how seriously the when is considered here)-since this post, this whole rapture idea did not even surface til about the mid nineteenth century; and by a cult that, as far as i can tell, may no longer be functioning.

If it were such a prominent doctrine, why is it only found once written in the sciptures regarding this catching away...and none of the early church fathers give any support to this notion.


This has been discussed at length in the past here on SermonIndex. The accusation that the concept of a "catching away" of the Bride BEFORE the period of God's wrath was somehow manufactured in the mid-19th Century is misleading and incorrect. This same statement has been repeated by people here on SermonIndex (and in many anti-Rapture websites) before in the past -- even accusing some little girl as having "invented" the notion.

First of all, there hasn't been a whole lot of writing found from the plethora of common believers in the early part of the "early Church." Believers were persecuted horrendously during much of the first three centuries. Paper was also a scarce commodity. The only people who wrote at great length were educated individuals who could actually afford to make or purchase paper. In addition, most writings were lost to time. We don't even know the extent of how the doctrinal things that were written (and later recovered) were shared by other believers. Regardless, the only "credible" writing, of course, is found in the Word of God. However, it is a mistake to say that the notion of a "catching away" before the Tribulation was invented in the 19th Century. Ephraem the Syrian, one of those "early church fathers," wrote about this somewhere between 304 and 373 A.D. He wrote, "[i]For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins[/i]" (from Ephraem's work, [i]On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World[/i]).
Quote:

Some prominent former ministers of the gospel, when this new doctrine surfaced, (if it is recalled correctly such as Oswald Chamber, Hudson Taylor and David Brainerd ?) state that the idea of a rapture does not hold water, and is a very leaky bucket at best.


As I showed you, this was NOT a "new doctrine" in the 19th Century. However, just because a few men of God disagreed with the notion that the Lord would gather His Bridge BEFORE His wrath is poured out (which is the essence of what most people who believe in the "rapture" actually believe) doesn't make it so. For every minister of God like Hudson Taylor or Corrie ten Boom who doesn't believe in such a gathering before the Wrath of God, there are other men of God like David Wilkerson or Carter Conlon who do. Besides, like them, many of us do not consider it to be a "leaky bucket" at all.
Quote:

The U of I library here has books by a woman who "married" an angel and instructs people how to enjoy the same 'relationship'..."as in the days of Noah". (Now days they are possibly noted as incubus an succubus, but might be a different order of 'angel' altogether.) Though Chuck has not studied into this as detailed as i was forced into for a psych. paper, his work in this is more notable than all i have researched:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCk4VMTGme4&feature=related

He adde to what is already known here regarding the Nephillim. There is also a sermon recalled by Pastor Joe Focht on Gen. 4:25-6:4 that may avail you.

Rev. 12:12 clarifies that after Jesus resurrection satan was cast to the earth, and it is his wrath that is being experienced all the way til the very end of time. God's cup of wrath is poured out on the day of the Lord, and it will come totally unexpected-of which O.T. prophets all talk about ahnihilation, destruction of the earth's surface, and the heavens being shaken.


I'm not sure what you are saying about the Nephilim (or how it bears mentioning in regard to the timing of the Lord's return). Regardless, the actual identity of the Nephilim is speculative at best.

As far as WHEN Satan was cast to the Earth -- this is also open to debate. After the disciples returned and testified that demons were subject to them in Jesus's name, the Lord replied, "[i]I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven[/i]" (Luke 10:17-18). Many scholars argue that Jesus was referring to the original fall of Satan to the Earth. Now, I certainly think that the period commonly referred to as "The Great Tribulation" will be bad for obvious reasons. Satan will be pouring out his wrath. Mankind will be pouring out their wrath. But what will make it so horrendous is the fact that God will be pouring out His wrath upon the entire world (in the forms of seals, bowls and trumpets).

In the Scriptures, God has NEVER poured out His wrath upon His own people. He provided ways of escape for Noah and his family, Lot and his family, the Israelites during the plagues, etc... I believe that there is a strong case that God will gather His Bride BEFORE that period in a manner similar to the old Jewish tradition at an hour that neither the groom and the Bride know (as demonstrated in the Parable of the Ten Virgins in Matthew 25:1-13). We know that God has promised to keep His Bride FROM the "hour of trial" that will come upon "all the world" (Revelation 3:10).

There are many of us here who might not be as vocal as others who have not cast a final lot with any group of thinking. I am not definitively "pre-trib" (although I prefer the world "pre-wrath" and "gathering" -- since most people who believe in a "rapture" merely believe that the Groom will "gather" His Bride before the Wrath of God is poured out upon the entire Earth). Rather, I lean heavily toward this position WHILE still being prepared for whatever may come. Keith Green called this "praying for pre-trib but being prepared for post-trib." David Wilkerson called this a "pan-trib" position -- knowing that everything will "pan" out in the end. The important thing is to be prepared by seeking and knowing Jesus Christ.

Someone already pointed out that, shortly before His ascension, the Lord admonished the apostles (who had asked him about the timing of his Kingdom) about the importance of the power of the Holy Spirit in their ministries. When they were asking about specific timing, Jesus said, "[i]It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power[/i]" (Acts 1:7). He redirected the importance of the here-and-now. He continued, "[i]But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth[/i]" (Acts 1:8). So, I agree that the importance is in truly and intimately knowing God with complete purity...and then introducing this free gift (to know and fellowship with a forgiving God) to the rest of the world.

After all, "[i]to live is Christ, and to die is gain[/i]" (Phillipians 1:21).


_________________
Christopher

 2010/4/13 2:16Profile









 Re:

(well, materials needed were not yet delivered, and we may have to wait another day before building continues... canyou say "worse than a rainy day?")
------------------------------------------------------------------

Phillip, the chance has not yet come to put out questions regarding the commentary read, but not yet responded to. Honestly, i'm not up much at all for 'flowery' texts/sermons nor hymns that sound like funeral dirges.

I did not come to Jesus for the streets of gold, nor the things we try to do down here to butter up christianity.

The limited view re: possessing your vessel is not agreed with... but that's another thread, He does make some salient points, which will be given a post of it's own (in this thread) when time affords.
<><><><><><><><><><><><>


Areadymind: calling myself a fool is not being hard on myself, but a statement of fact when i fail to study into the way God knows things to be, and instead rely on my own perception of things. Worse, telling others something without having all the facts is just so horrible. (that still small voice, which is not always so still and so small, when writing that told me not to write that stuff, and after finishing to delete the whole mess regarding that, so perhaps a stiffnecked fool that did not search- (when told that as well)- might be more to the T.

"through a glass dimly" is a foregone conclusion here, but butting your head against the Rock... well, you get the picture.

NTL, the encouragement is very appreciated, as well as the strike against the wrong words.


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carm is going to have to be checked into Giggles.

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ccchhhrrriiisss:
From reading your post, it seems that as D. Wilkerson calls it, i'm a pan-trib person, with a heavy leaning towards towards the very end, if not after.

If there is a rapture, that would mean that there would be 3 ressurrections and three judgements, wouldn't it?

It's thought that the questions tottering this mind have to do with "the trumpet", "the last trump" and all the other passages related in relation to Rev. 11:15-19 which is quite specific. (my one sister and mom state that this is definitely the middle of the tribulation, and if this is so, it seems to validate the last chapter of Daniel-(which has not yet been read in the Masoretic mss).



The issue of God's wrath being poured out during the trib, in contradiction with "we are not appointed unto wrath", seems not to be contradiction at all; for the scriptures plainly state that these things are done to: the world, those who served and worshipped the beast, recieved his mark, Babylon (MOH) etc.

Since Revelation is written for the purpose of informing us just what is what in regards to this whole issue, it's thought that all passages referring to the end not found in Revelation, should be referenced to it to see if there is common ground to walk on.

I Cor. 15:24 that Areadymind put foreward, if taken with I Cor. 15:23 states it concisely:
1. Christ (the firstfruits)
2. On His return, those who are His (the ressurection)
3. v.24 then comes the end (of this age)

(have the forum pages been indexed? If not, do you know which ones hold the information regarding estachology?)

After all is gone over, it's planned to put foreward a new view of the sequence of events--(thus adding to the confusion or rectifying wrong ideas)???

BTW< Nephillim have much to do with "as in the days of Noe".

What is heartily agreed is this one thing, as has been put foreward several times in this thread, and as you concluded:

Be clothed in the Holy Spirit.
Preach the Gospel to every creature.
Make disciples teaching them:
Immersing-(baptising)-them in
the work and authority-(name)-
of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Watch!
Pray!


gregg
Mt. 24:14






 2010/4/14 17:49
Areadymind
Member



Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean

 Re:

Quote:
Areadymind: calling myself a fool is not being hard on myself, but a statement of fact when i fail to study into the way God knows things to be, and instead rely on my own perception of things. Worse, telling others something without having all the facts is just so horrible. (that still small voice, which is not always so still and so small, when writing that told me not to write that stuff, and after finishing to delete the whole mess regarding that, so perhaps a stiffnecked fool that did not search- (when told that as well)- might be more to the T.



I can respect that.


_________________
Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/4/14 17:58Profile
Areadymind
Member



Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean

 Re:

I hope this is OK, but this is a sermon series by David Legge, whom has had many sermons here on this website, but I do not think this series is on here. Brother David does a great job of explaining the Dynamo of Christ as God with Christ as man, and the fusion of how those two concepts intersected. He also talks about laying down his "Divine prerogatives," which was what I was trying to get at originally.

[url=http://www.preachtheword.com/studies/ssman.html]The Man of the Millenium by David Legge[/url]


_________________
Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/4/14 18:17Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4582


 Re:

Hi Phanetheus...

Quote:

If there is a rapture, that would mean that there would be 3 ressurrections and three judgements, wouldn't it?

It's thought that the questions tottering this mind have to do with "the trumpet", "the last trump" and all the other passages related in relation to Rev. 11:15-19 which is quite specific. (my one sister and mom state that this is definitely the middle of the tribulation, and if this is so, it seems to validate the last chapter of Daniel-(which has not yet been read in the Masoretic mss).


I think that you are building upon assumptions here. There are several different days known as "the day of the Lord." It is possible that the same is true of trumpets.
Quote:
The issue of God's wrath being poured out during the trib, in contradiction with "we are not appointed unto wrath", seems not to be contradiction at all; for the scriptures plainly state that these things are done to: the world, those who served and worshipped the beast, recieved his mark, Babylon (MOH) etc.


Yes, but the Scripture also talks about EVERY LIVING SOUL in the sea who would die as a direct (or indirect) result of the wrath of God (Revelation 16:3). Now, if I believed that the Bride of Christ were to be forced to live on the Earth during the period of God's wrath, I would also believe that God somehow supernaturally protects them (and physically sustains them) while He destroyed the world around them. However, this seems somewhat of a contradiction to the description given in Revelation about the result of that wrath.

Still, I don't want you to confuse a "leaning" toward a gathering of the Bride before the day of God's wrath as the same as seeing this as an undeniable conclusion. I will be the first to admit that I don't know with absolute certainty the exact manner and timing of the Lord's return. To be clear, I am not too concerned about it either. It is a joy to know Christ in this Earth -- even in the face of tribulation. Paul, the apostle who had been beaten, shipwrecked, and rejected by mankind was the same guy who said "To live is Christ."

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2010/4/14 21:52Profile





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