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 A can of worms

Rapture...

Is this not a term coined by those who believe that Jesus will come before the tribulation to take out those who believe: to save them from the wrath of satan?

 2010/4/7 14:19
Areadymind
Member



Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean

 Re: A can of worms

The term, if I understand correctly, comes from the Latin translation of the word Harpazo. In Latin it was translated Raptuzo (or something like that), so in English they used the word rapture. At least that is how I heard it explained anyway. That could at least get you started on researching the etymology of the terms. It is derived from the words we now read in the KJ, "Caught Up." And at least those that I have heard preach it have been concerned about being saved from the wrath of the Lamb, not the wrath of Satan, to be technically fair.


_________________
Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/4/7 14:45Profile









 Re:

Quote:
It is derived from the words we now read in the KJ, "Caught Up." And at least those that I have heard preach it have been concerned about being saved from the wrath of the Lamb, not the wrath of Satan, to be technically fair.



Ok on the term. Will look to the greek for comparison, and see where 'caught-up" is used elsewhere, if it is.

Maybe this wrath of the Lamb business should have been with the thread on the day of the Lord.

From reading the Bible, is not the wrath of the Lamb the day of the Lord?
and
the tribulation the wrath of satan, because his time is so short?

 2010/4/7 14:58
Ceri
Member



Joined: 2008/10/17
Posts: 113
Notts. England.

 Re:

Can I recommend that you watch Chuck Missler, he can be seen on youtube - his series that I watched recently on the Revelation was absolutely brilliant and such an eye opener.
He explains everything with such depth he was about 15 weeks on just the first three chapters. I found him totally engrosing. I'm sure you won't be disapponted.


_________________
Ceri Elaine

 2010/4/7 15:07Profile









 Re:

Thank you Ceri!

Totally fascinating... Yes indeed.

i watched Chuck... and though the following comments may seem derogatory, it is a for-what-it's-worth face value examination. (Further, i will be looking into all his other work that can be found to glean valid rock solid scriptural knowledge. Much, but not all, of what he says seems to hold validity).


1st
His knowledge of quantum science seems to be limited, or he is not saying everything. It might be that he is using information that relates to his theory of a rapture, and disregards other things that might possibly give the whole idea another slant - (i.e. Quantum Physics:Negative string theory, Quantum Mechanics:Reverse Optics, etc.) You are hearing this from someone who majored in math and science.

2nd
What threw up a red flag in the scripture dept. was his referring to Enoch and Elijah as being caught-up. Enoch died according to Heb. 11:13, and the idea of 'translated' best fits in with the Hebrew word pictures of the account in Gen. (The name Enoch means to throttle, and this seems to be what occured: He 'throttled' his carnal flesh to the point that it fell away as his walk with God became more than his 'tent' could handle. Of course, you might possibly do the same if you had a son to be named "when he dies it shall come" (="Methuselah"), referring to the flood Noah and family survived (Gen. 5). Heb.11:5 in relation to Heb. 11:13 is clarified in the verb tense, expressed in english as v.5 states, "should not see death" (meaning still to occur at some future point in time- poss. the second death???). Neither he, nor Elijah could have gone to God's heaven (One of three kinds mentioned in the Bible) or Jesus would be lying in Jn. 3:13. Further, Elijah's being caught up was not in a chariot as many misunderstand. The fiery chariot was between Elijah and Elisha, who were at ground level, before Elijah was 'caught-up' in a whirlwind, in the atmosphere (aka:heaven)-(2nd type of heaven, the 3rd being outer space). There are 2 seperate accounted record of the doings of Elijah in Kings and Chronicles. If these are placed side by side and correlated chronologically, approximately 7 years after Elijah's 'rapture', there is record of him writing a letter (?from heaven? ...come on now...rilly?) to the king of Judah-((?) if memory serves correct-(i'll look it up if you so desire)). What actually happened is after the kingdom of Israel was divided, Elijah stood as prophet in one kingdom and Elisha in the other.

O.K., so the Septuagint (sp?) uses 'harpazo', however, this is not what the Hebrew says. This merely clarifies that to translate a picture language into one with more limited definition capacity is to be limited in the ability to define exactly what occured.

This is what amazes me by those who state that the KJV is the only true word of God. How do you translate Queen's English, or even Elezebethian into Mandrin or Arabic? How can one English synonym represent a word from an original manuscript that takes professors of these archaic languages paragraphs and even pages to define?

Because Chuck Missler lumps all these occurances into one word shows that he is over-simplifying something much more complicated to prove a point about something that is not relative to all instances stated. Because the 1st two examples given did not apply, there seemed to be no further need to go with that train of thought.

Still, his intensity in conviction is captivating, so all 12 episode were watched with notes taken.

The simple fact that the word rapture is used to say that there will be a resurrection before the tribulation, makes one wonder all kinds of things, like: will there be three judgements of Christ, and three ressurections and so on??? That is not what the Bible seems to say.

Did God give us the scriptures to confuse us?

There are no conclusions drawn yet, except in what has been covered thus far. All bets are off til' the fat lady sings, STS.

What really has me doubting that there is a pre-tribulation rapture is Jesus' prophecy regarding the end in the synoptic accounts of the Olivet Prophecy. (Mt.24, Mk. 13, Lk. 21) None of them contradict each other, however, each add detail where something is not as thouroughly covered in another account. They all say the tribulation comes first, then the heavens fail, and then He gathers his elect. Mark seems to be most clear in regards to this: Mk. 13:24-25,26,27.

They all say watch and pray that you may escape certain horrors coming, yet, no mention of anything like a rapture is mentioned in any of the 3 gospels. His points in regards to John are speculative at best.

Where in the Bible did God ever remove peoples from any potential harm rather than going through and overcoming???

see: I Cor. 10:13 (trial and test are also relative and encompassed in the word 'temptation' from the original greek ms.)

Honestly, i think we are all wrong...all of us. Just because something seems to be the lesser of 2 evils, does not make it not- nor non-evil.

Thoughts?

Anyone?


Sincerely,
G

Edited for mispellings

 2010/4/8 22:16
mguldner
Member



Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860
Kansas

 Re:

Well in all actuallity I agree with you, We see the pattern of the Bible of God's people going through the tribulation rather than being plucked up and removed from it as to avoid problems. My dad and I get into discussions about this and I believe that the great falling away mentioned very well could be a large group of pre-tribulation believers that are swayed by the persecution thinking God has forsaken them. I generally lean more towards the Post-trib camp because to me logically I will be spending my life preparing for the tribulation to come rather than having the mindset of I don't need to do anything because I will be raptured anyways. I however tend to say that I don't care what you believe Pre or Post or even Mid we need to be preparing for the Return of the Lord.

God Bless,
Matthew


_________________
Matthew Guldner

 2010/4/8 23:13Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7512
Mississippi

 Re:

Matthew wrote:

Quote:
We see the pattern of the Bible of God's people going through the tribulation rather than being plucked up and removed from it as to avoid problems. My dad and I get into discussions about this and I believe that the great falling away mentioned very well could be a large group of pre-tribulation believers that are swayed by the persecution thinking God has forsaken them. I generally lean more towards the Post-trib camp because to me logically I will be spending my life preparing for the tribulation to come rather than having the mindset of I don't need to do anything because I will be raptured anyways. I however tend to say that I don't care what you believe Pre or Post or even Mid we need to be preparing for the Return of the Lord.



I agree for the reasons cited.

Corrie ten Boom would also agree with you, Matthew. She said the same thing. She said Hollanders were taught this pre-trib rapture believing fully that no tribulation can ever come to them. When WW2 came upon them and they were invaded and had to live under German rule, the people were not prepared spiritually to handle this and thus many fell away.

As I understand Scripture the only suffering the Believer will be spared is the one in hell. Otherwise, we can reasonably expect all kinds. Of course, one can avoid some suffering - depending on how you define suffering - by making lifestyle choices in line with God's will. This alone should be a great motivator to flee temptation/sin.

My thoughts....

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2010/4/9 9:11Profile









 Re:

Quote:

... Mk. 13:24-25,26,27

They all say watch and pray that you may escape certain horrors coming, yet, no mention of anything like a rapture is mentioned in any of the 3 gospels...

Where in the Bible did God ever remove peoples from any potential harm rather than going through...

see: I Cor. 10:13 (trial and test are also relative and encompassed in the word 'temptation' from the original greek ms.)

Honestly, i think we are all wrong...all of us. Just because something seems to be the lesser of 2 evils, does not make it not- nor non-evil.




Why did this guy say we are all wrong???

It's all about the "watch and pray."

Jesus also states, "see that no man decieve you" in these Olivet discourses.

Here's why it's thought we are all wrong. He also says, "these things must come", but, are we really suppose to be focusing in on the signs?

That is a good way to become decieved, ie., Looking for the Beast and the abomination of desolation, etc.

[my daughter told me Obama is probably the anti-christ. So, i had to take her to 1st John and clarify to her that anti-christ is not a person, but a spirit; and, that the spirit of anti-christ was here when John wrote that. I also had to explain to her that 'anti' does not necessarily mean 'opposed to', but means 'instead of' as well, as John was writing about apostacy and not a certain person.]

i may be wrong but, the reason Jesus said "these things must come", could be akin to saying, "don't be surprised when these things happen when they do."

Jesus does not even know when He will return, so how can we pin a certain time on anything related to this?

"Watch and pray" is spoken in the context of His deliverance for us, as well as the fulfilling of our redemption.

So why are we all wrong?

WATCH and pray

Here's a part of an old hymn that says it all:

Turn your eyes upon Jesus,
Look full in His wonderful face,
And the things of earth will grow strangely dim,
in the light of His glory and grace.

Your brother,
gregg 8^)

Edited for mispellings

 2010/4/10 9:33
Areadymind
Member



Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean

 Re:

Quote:
Jesus does not even know when He will return, so how can we pin a certain time on anything related to this?



Hrmmmm...I would say that Jesus did not know when he gave up all of his divinity to become a man, but when he ascended to the father, his purpose became to set the world in subjection under his feet, so He is the lamb worthy to open the scroll. I do not think he is willfully ignorant of those things now as he was on the earth. The Father gave him the right to sit down at His right hand. Which means he now reigns. The ascension changed a lot of things for the Messiah, so I would say that your statement here was only true when he walked the earth...it may not be true now brother.

In Christ.

Jer.


_________________
Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/4/10 10:56Profile









 Re:



g wrote:
Jesus does not even know when He will return, so how can we pin a certain time on anything related to this?

Quote:
Hrmmmm...I would say that Jesus did not know when he gave up all of his divinity to become a man,

g writes:
This is another of those enigmas deep inside.

In confirmation (Westminster bent), i asked the pastor about that and still wonder: being told he was all God and all man. He said that this statement was misleading if the complete concept is not explained.

He shortened his explanation to, "Jesus came AS a man, yet he was still God in heaven.

I said, "how so?"

Though he only gave me one verse, and have sinced looked no further into it, it has been found that other mss. do not hold the whole of the last phrase of this verse, Jn. 3:13,
("who is in heaven" being omitted).


Quote:

but when he ascended to the father, his purpose became to set the world in subjection under his feet, so He is the lamb worthy to open the scroll. I do not think he is willfully ignorant of those things now as he was on the earth. The Father gave him the right to sit down at His right hand. Which means he now reigns. The ascension changed a lot of things for the Messiah, so I would say that your statement here was only true when he walked the earth...it may not be true now brother.

Is this somewhere in the Bible?

All i know is that God does not change from the O.T., and Jesus Christ the same, yesterday, today, and forever from the New.

To this, it's question if His ascension changed this?

Just because i am one with my dad, it is no reason to think that i am him. i may know alot of what he thinks, but i do not know all his plans, nor do i determine what he decides to do.

I know Jesus sits with His Father in His throne, at His right hand; but, i do not know that he knows everything his Abba (aka:daddy) plans, thinks, or decided what he should do.

You may be right. If you know something in regards to this that you have not let on to, it would be greatly appreciated if you would be kind enough to clarify things.

Honestly, i do not know.

Mind you, i am "Berean", triple and quadruple checks on anything put foreward.

If this is all speculative, we can dismiss any or all of this at your choosing.

 2010/4/10 16:08





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