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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : contemplative prayer

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Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3421
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: contemplative prayer

It’s hard to stand by and read all this fear mongering over one word and propagating the fear of a perfectly good word!

For what it’s worth, this is exactly what I have been trying to say about denominational differences. I read about half of Don Whitney’s “Devotion” before I thought, “What is this guy’s denominational affiliation? I bet I know.” And it was what I guessed. What gave it away was all his different uses of evangelical, “moorings,” “writers,” and “evangelical theology.”

His first sentence of the last section really doesn’t say anything about the Christian’s use of the Bible but instead says, “My observation is that most of those in both the pulpit and the pew are not studying doctrine.” He doesn’t seem to worry that people aren’t studying their Bibles!

[url= ]Doctrine[/url] is a particular principle, position taught or advocated; a body or system of teachings relating to a particular subject.

So what if our 'body of teachings' doesn't agree on prayer? Our denominational doctrine or theology affect the way we read and the way we interpret of the Word of God. And just because someone else does it differently than your church or understands it differently than your church, it doesn’t mean everyone else is false converts.

I have NEVER been to a prayer meeting where people chant or anyone has ever said, “Clear your mind of everything you thought was true.” I don’t know how except through God dropping the Holy Spirit like an anvil down on top of all of us, when we will all finally agree on something instead of condemning and denouncing one another because we don’t understand with or agree with how someone worships the Lord.

I’d like to ask, “How many denominations are represented in this thread?”

My denomination is... I don’t really have one! But I am a believer who walks in and exercises in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I’m not near as afraid of the word, “contemplative” as some of you seem to be. I've been in a lot of pentecostal and Spirit-filled type meetings and NEVER seen any of the things Brothertom wrote about it.

Brothers and Sisters, time is short; we need to be praying for one another. If you think IHOP or contemplative prayer is so bad, WHY oh why are you not in your secret prayer closest praying for those who are so deceived?? THIS is how we can know that we’ve past from death unto life; because we love the brethren (that much)!!

(edited for english mistakes!)


 2010/4/3 15:59Profile


But would it be wrong, for instance, to meditate for long periods upon the attributes of God? It doesn't appear to me to be so.

No, however, meditation on such without the clear revelation of God, his testimony of Himself -the scriptures- seems to have the earmarks of idolatry, possibly creating God in our own image.

When David says, 'When I consider thy heavens', it doesn't mean he had a revelation from a passing thought. At least I don't think so. If I recall correctly, one of the words in the greek language that is translated 'to see', means to gaze upon and to look upon intently

"too see to it that you observe like a watchman/guard"-
Jn 14:15,21,23?
David's considerations stated were long after he had spent much time in the Torah in meditation. As a backdrop to this process of meditation, he had long before memorized the pentateuch - 'Torah'. If you just consider the amound of time David gives to reverencing 'God's Teachings' See Ps. 119 with many other verses elsewhere)... and the minimal amount of reference to nature, it might have been just a passing thought.

I cannot see where it would be unholy to look long and intently at any of the attributes of God. And in so doing, to worship Him.

Me either.
It's just that without God's revelation (Bible), you most likely are stabbing in the dark. That is not a good place to be playing.

Consider his attributes through what He testifies about enjoys doing, and all the examples he gives of this. It's hard to steer the boat wrong when He is illumining you in the direction you should go.

Jer. 9:24ESV



 2010/4/7 15:24

Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


hi,selah jimp

 2010/4/7 18:51Profile

Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA


It's just that without God's revelation (Bible), you most likely are stabbing in the dark. That is not a good place to be playing.

I agree with you Gregg,

Which is why...

If what you say he practiced is what Tozer did, i hope for the sake of all who read his texts, that it was based on following scripture passages in 'contemplation'. If this is the case, i would not call it contemplative so much as meditation in the scripture.

... it is a good practice to take the time to make clear distinctions of what something is or isn't, what is or isn't being practiced, especially when people are being named in association with these things.

If AW Tozer practiced some form of contemplative prayer, and he is being mentioned here, then what he practised, and specificially, needs to be stated or he shouldn't be mentioned to begin with.

That also is taking stabs in the dark.


Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2010/4/7 20:16Profile

Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3421
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: Greg

Greg, I typed this up and right before I entered this, saw ChrisJD's post! Very good one... don't worry about my post! I liked his!!!

[url=]Contemplate[/url] means (again), to look at or view with continued attention; observe or study thoughtfully; to consider thoroughly; think fully or deeply about; to have a purpose; intend. Synonyms: take in, size up, deliberate, notice, propose, examine, and pry.

Verses in KJV - [b]Meditate[/b] Gen 24.63; Joshua 1.8; Psalm 1.2, 63.6, 77.12, 119.15, 23, 48, 78, 148; Psalm 143.5; Isaiah 33.18; Luke 21.14; 1 Tim 4.15

Greg, you don't seem to be afraid of the word "meditate" so I'm not understanding how the word "contemplative" gets to people... look above at the meaning again! I googled "meditate" and the first 10 responses were all on one topic: transcendental meditation; while the first 10 responses under "contemplative" were on five different topics!

People won't accept contemplative because it's not in the Bible but yet they accept meditate because it is in the Bible. Using that logic, you wouldn't think that people would accept the word "rapture" like they do since IT'S not in the Bible and all. Oh but look at how many people have fallen for that one!! LOL

God bless you!!


 2010/4/7 20:30Profile


It's believed that if we do not stick with pre-established norms, unless it contradicts what the actual bible manuscripts are saying, it will convolute the issue(s) being discussed.

From there, things can become very awry.

This seems to be one predominant way the Gospel has been tainted and twisted. ( 'believe' and 'faith' never intended to mean 'agree in your mind' nor 'decide', but rather 'to do as you think and say'. Believe implies action irregardless to what you percieved to be so. Faith implies faithfulness. (Jas. 2:18,19 20ESV and Jn. 3:36ESV)

We can rest assured that God's Word is faithful and true. Except for definition and illustration, it is good to go to the best source we can possibly find for understanding what exactly we talk about.

There must be a standard adhered to, or the initial intent becomes lost, or, at best, tainted.

For myself, in regards to the scriptures, of the Koine (classical) Greek, primarily, the The Textus Receptus is used in conjunction with the Otogra. With the Old Testament, the Masoretic Text is used here.

From what has been learned so far of 'contemplative', were such a word to be used in replacement for 'meditation',-(as it's meaning is understood through the scriptures)- we narrow down the meaning. To contemplate is hardly meditation, but, rather one aspect of it, and rudimentary at that.

If i were to say "John the Dunker' or "drowned in Christ" many would be confused. If i stick to the word 'baptise', though many think it only deals with water, the hearer/reader is not thrown off by a use of different terms. In using the word baptise, with most, there is common ground for further understanding.

How many people actually pick up a dictionary and research the spermology,etymology, and morphology of a word, much less context and syntax where that word is used? If they do research into a word, at best, most go with the definitions they find, to say nothing of whether they bothered to check the validity of the source, or checking additional sources.

'Contemplative' has gained it's meaning today because of cultural usage, so cultural context is imperative in defining it. Since first reading into this thread, it has been learned that this word is most often used by new age and neo-pagan proponents, as well as catholic mystics, in definition of any various aspect of heathen eastern techniques, usually from any of many a various school of buddhist and/or hundu forms of godless meditation.

It is forcefully spoken and agreed that prayer for the church above all else be the call of the day. As written, so i do. These are brothers and sisters who are turning to things outside the pale of our Only One and True Faith.

If you do not know what you should pray, look at Jn.17 thouroughly.

All in all, follow Jesus example. You can't go wrong doing that.

To all who read this, not as a recomendation, i give give a command from the Lord, "hold fast to what is written." Mt. 5:19 / I Cor. 6:2-3 / Jn. 14:23

Grace and Shalom to all who walk in Covenant with God our Father through His Son Jesus, the only King without mediator, annointed in and by Him.


p.s. Neither do i condone the word "rapture',
but will be ready for it when it comes.

Edited: for wrong verse quoted

 2010/4/8 11:04


Authentic Christian prayer is always outward, where by faith we commune with the Father , and His holy Son seated at the right hand of the Father. It is never inward. It is always aggressive, and exterior. It always stems from communion outward, where Heaven is real, where Christ is alive, making intercession with the Father for His desire and His own.

This is not about words; it is about practice. Of course the Babylonian New Age practice has been hammered into Christianese so that the gullible would accept it as Christian. It is not, and it is anti-christ. Other spirits [demon powers] eventually seep into the void of the mind to create a semblance of the Lord, to deceive you.

This is the age old practice of Babylon, and as it sits today in Hindi India today, it is called Transcendental Meditation. You transcend the earthly plane to the Spiritual, with the goal of finding Nirvana; A state where gods live in perfect bliss with the Universe. The Hindi holy men speak of this consciousness, and these beings.

This is exactly the practice of the Mystic Prophets of Roman Catholicism, who used these methods handed down to them, shrouded in Christian symbolism, but in practice, fulfilling a satanic worship order, thousands of years old.

The bread and butter of this practice, begins in the methods to transcend. Focusing on one thing, clearing the mind, GUIDED IMAGERY...IE: The imagination. You focus to see something, and god wants you to obtain it. This is the exact same way that Todd Bentley travelled to heaven in his chats with Abraham, Moses and Jesus. He also spoke of angels with bags of gold, and many other fantastical experiences.

Were they real?. In a way , yes. The question being, Were they of the Lord?...They were originated in the mind of the wicked demon.

This is an exert from IHOP's website; a teaching on Meditative Prayer.

Method #2
Choose a short story in Scripture.

Read through the story several times silently.

Close your eyes and acknowledge the Spirit who lives in you.

[Here is were the imagery comes in...]
"Use your IMAGINATION to IMAGINE yourself as one of the story characters or as an onlooker"...[caps mine]

Does this sound like King David, or Maharishi yoga?

Play out the story in your mind applying all five of your senses.[ IHOP"S WORDS"] words..."Imagine a story in your mind, and it will be god, because that is how it works.

This is wicked claptrap, but deadly to the "BUYER." It is demonic Babylon, and you will be deceived if you receive it as truth."brothertom

Method #3..[ again, from IHOP's website on prayer.]

"We call this “Beholding the Spirit Within.”

The goal is to search for and feel God’s presence inside you, not necessarily to gain more understanding in God’s Word as with the first two methods.

Begin by gently praying a short passage of Scripture in silence while FOCUSING on the indwelling Spirit. The Scripture is used to quiet the clamoring of your soul and draw you to God.

!!!!!!It is the connection point, the springboard into the spiritual realm.!!!!!"

...[ directly quoted from IHOP]...caps mine.


"Once you feel God’s presence, FOCUS on it in a concentrated way.

You will be able to notice His presence now; He has always been there, but now your attention is on Him within you."

!!!!!!The outward senses are quiet and your surface thoughts are gone. You are beginning to be consumed by the Spirit.!!!!!!....IHOP

....[ another spirit..]...brothertom

IHOP TEACHES:....In this time, feel the freedom to stay quiet.

!!!!Silently ask the Spirit to show you a vision, or slowly and silently say to Him, “I love You. I love You. I love You.”!!!!!!

This is how demonic revelation is attained, masquerading as Holy.


edited for clarification of quotes....BT

 2010/4/8 11:12

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