| Re: World Council of Cults|
So what have we learned from all this?
That the evangelical religion is not from above. Any religion even capable of producing such a conversation is spurious.
For the Real Thing check out the [url=http://worldcouncilofcults.org]World Council of Cults[/url]
| 2010/3/26 18:32|
This world is not my home anymore.
Today I came up with this to ask you, [i]I am interested in understanding how for 2,000 years God has blinded Israel but yet according to what has been said in this thread, Hell suddenly save all Israel (only those living at that time, correct?), at the end of time.... while the Jews from 0 A.D. to present that have rejected Christ have gone to hell?
Im not ashamed or afraid to admit that I do not understand this at all and thought perhaps if someone knew a whole lot more than I, maybe they could share their knowledge. AND Id like to add that, I trust God that He is just and that He knows what Hes doing.
And Im going to be honest, Ive always been somewhat pro-Israel and didnt really start thinking about it until my son (a libertarian), started telling me Israel shouldnt be the ONLY country over there protected and yet they are!! [/i]
And after getting home from work and reading more from this thread, I beginning to wonder if there is really no pro-Israel because since the Bible does says, For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all (Rom 11.32).
Im just thinking out loud here, if the Jews that have rejected Christ in the last 2,000 have all gone to hell like the gentiles then we shouldnt be pro-Israel at all. What do you think?
Do any of my meanderings make a tab bit of sense? (huge grin)
God bless you all!!
| 2010/3/26 19:08||Profile|
| Re: |
So... what have we learned from all this?
That as followers of our Lord Jesus we should be praying for those who are lost to come to the Lord no matter where they are from. I pray for Israel to see all that the Lord has for them:)
| 2010/3/26 19:10||Profile|
| Re: kingjimmy|
I am interested in understanding how for 2,000 years God has blinded Israel but yet according to what has been said in this thread, Hell suddenly save all Israel (only those living at that time, correct?), at the end of time.... while the Jews from 0 A.D. to present that have rejected Christ have gone to hell?
I'll be happy to try and answer your question to the best of my ability, Lord willing. For a very full treatment on the subject, I would highly commend to you the sermons available on here by Art Katz. He spoke on this subject many times over the course of 30+ years of ministry, and is perhaps the greatest spokesman of this view.
Basically, the best way to understand these things is to understand it primarily through the lens of the covenant promises God established with Abraham, concerning his descendants and their inheriting the land of promise. These promises are not incidental, but rather, fundamental to all of redemptive history. All of Scripture is built upon the promises made to Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3.
Indeed, one might say Genesis 1-11 is the preface to the rest of the Scriptures. In it we learn of the creation of the world, and its subsequent fall and God's judgments upon a fallen world. But Genesis 12 starts a radical shift and begins a new story: the story of the gospel message, and how God plans on redeeming His fallen creation. Though not spelled out in intimate detail, the apostle Paul recognized in God's promises to Abraham the basic gospel message (Galatians 3:8):
Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go forth from your country, And from your relatives And from your father's house, To the land which I will show you; And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing; And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed." - (Genesis 12:1-3 NASB)
This is a very familiar passage of Scripture, but it is one that we must not be so quick to gloss over. It is something we need to work into our hearts and minds as deeply as we can. For this is the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is Gods blueprint for redemptive history, and these promises serve as the narrative upon which the rest of the Scriptures are written upon. Any theological system that does not have this passage as its bedrock, is ultimately deficient.
In this passage, we learn that Gods plan is to reverse the curse that has been introduced into the world through the fall of man. In it God says to Abraham that He is going to give Abraham and his descendants a certain geographical piece of land as an inheritance (as confirmed in later passages), and that through this land of promise, and through Abraham, all of the world will enjoy Gods blessing. God wants to again bless His creation, instead of letting it be destroyed by the curse. But this blessing will come through the mediation of Abraham. In him is the source of all Gods blessing for the entire world.
Of course, the promises made to Abraham ultimately concern Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:16). But though it chiefly concerns Christ, the promises are not exclusively concerning Him, as He cannot be considered apart from the great nation that the promises identify Him with. Wherein lies part of the problem in the Scriptures. The great nation that is to issue from Abraham, that is to be a source of universal blessing for the entire world, ultimately fails time and time again to be the nation God has called it to be, so that it might function in such a role. Instead of being blessed so that it might be a blessing, the nation that issues from Abraham ultimately partakes of the curse that is devouring all of creation, and in the process, becomes the opposite of what God would have it become.
For God has called the nation that issues out of Abraham to serve as a kingdom of priests (Exodus 19:6), so that through it, God might dispense His blessings upon all of creation. But instead of fulfilling this role, the nation time and time again turns its back on God. It fails to live up to its calling, and be the holy nation (Exodus 19:6) that God has called it and created it to be. You see, what many people fail to realize is that national, physical, and ethnic Israel has always been called by God to be a holy and spiritual people. And though they have always failed to fully embrace this call, it is a calling which remains.
Why does it remain? Because, the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. (Romans 11:29) No matter how much Israel may run from its calling, it will never run so far as to escape Gods calling and purpose for its existence. Why? Because God made a promise to Abraham to bless all of creation through the nation that would be born of him, and it is a promise that God will not take back, no matter how much man may kick against it. Gods purposes will not be thwarted, they will come to pass.
But these promises cannot come to pass so long as the nation God has uniquely called fails to be the people God has called it to be. But, in spite of their continual and present failures, God will prove Himself faithful to the promises of His covenant that He made with Abraham, and will cause His people to become the very people they must become, all that His good word may come to pass, and all of the nations of the earth might be blessed.
Because God is a faithful God who keeps His covenant, we can have full assurance that God fully intends to keep His word, and will cause Israel to become the people God has called it to become. Thus God promises that one day, all Israel will be saved. (Romans 11:26) And so all of Israel at the end of the age MUST come to salvation, so that God may release all His blessings to all of the world, just as He promised He would do in Abraham, through the Messiah and the nation that would come from Him. Indeed, Paul teaches that their national salvation at the end of the age is such a powerful event, that the blessing released from their conversion brings about the resurrection of the dead. (Romans 11:15)
But, so far as history is concerned, Israel has yet to come to such a national salvation. At the present time, as it has existed throughout all of the history of Israel, there has only been a small faithful remnant of believers from that nation. Largely, the nation has failed to ever live up to its calling. Instead, it has rebelled from being the people God has called it to be. As a result, in Deuteronomy 28-32, God established some checks with the nation, known as the covenant curses, to continually remind the nation of its rebellion, and failure to embrace its calling. These curses are ultimately designed by God to remind His people that they have strayed from being the people He has called them to be, so that they might turn back to Him.
The primary emphasis of the covenant curses is that Israel would not know peace, and would not enjoy the land God promised to Abraham. Instead, they would know plague, famine, war, and ultimately, exile from the land. And such has been what Israel has continued to experience for 2,700 years, in varying degrees, as it has turned its back continually on God.
In 722 BC, the Assyrians destroyed the northern kingdom of Israel. In 586 BC, the Babylonians destroyed the southern kingdom of Judah. 70 years later, a remnant of the exiles were allowed to return and resettle the land. However, Israel had failed to learn its lesson, and the prophets again saw the nation being removed from the land. And after the rejection of Christ, in 70 AD the Romans came and once again sent the nation into exile, where it has and still continues to largely wander and be destroyed, especially at the hands of Hitler.
Though the nation has in part, resettled itself in the land, but so long as it lives apart from the Lord who has given them the land as a gift, they live constantly under the shadow of judgment, and the curses found in the covenant. All of this, mind you, is part of Gods design, as His chastising hand is at work to ultimately break the strength of the nation, so that it would stop trusting in itself, but would rather trust in the Lord. Therefore, there still remains great trouble for the nation, as the nation must ultimately be brought to death, before it can experience resurrection life, just as the prophets have foretold.
So, where does that leave us as Christians today? Should we have a pro-Israel stance? I guess that ultimately depends on what you mean by pro-Israel. If it is the sentimental mushy nonsense you hear coming from the lips of men like John Hagee, you can forget it. Such theologies are pushing for the success and continuation of a nation that is living according to the strong arm of the flesh, and ultimately living in rejection of their Messiah. God wants no such thing, and indeed, is determined to destroy anything that might give them a fleshly confidenceas if they could live in His land without Him.
But we should be pro-Israel in another sense. A sense that is ultimately prophetic in its scope. By being pro-Israel I do not imagine cheerleading for the carnal national state that exists at the present time. If I did that, I would be rooting with the nation in its rebellion against God, and supporting its injustices. Rather, Im pro-Israel in the sense that I understand what God is looking to accomplish in redemptive history, from a prophetic standpoint, and how God is calling me to identify with Israel in light of that.
When taking this vantage point, I recognize that the present day nation is ultimately doomed to suffer another holocaust. The present nation is doomed to suffer another exile. An exile that will yet again cause them to be sifted through all nations. An exile which will ultimately cause Jews to be in flight across the globe. And it is while they are in exile that God will call you and I as Christians, to extend His mercy to them, so that they might ultimately encounter the Lord in the wilderness of the nations, and there meet with Him face to face. For it is in that place they will find the Lord, and come to experience the salvation He has predestined they experience, so that they might become the people God has called them to be, so that all the world might be blessed.
this is much longer than I intended to write, but, I hope it helps answer your questions. This is a very difficult topic to wrestle with, and I am more than glad to help you wrestle with it. But ultimately I must encourage you to do as I did, and look to the Lord, and diligently search the Scriptures to see if these things are true. And by search, I mean you must absolutely dig. It took me about a year of reading over and over again, the writings of the prophets, and listening to a lot of sermons, and asking a lot of questions, before I finally started to wrap my head around this stuff. Then one day, I believe the Lord caused it all to click.
| 2010/3/26 23:51||Profile|
| Re: |
But though it chiefly concerns Christ, the promises are NOT exclusively concerning Him, as He cannot be considered apart from the great nation that the promises identify Him with
Quote:The "great nation" is Christ and all that are in Him, it is Him that is blessing this world with the good news.
The great nation that is to issue from Abraham, that is to be a source of universal blessing for the entire world
Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Ephesians 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Ephesians 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Ephesians 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Ephesians 2:19 NOW THEREFORE YOU ARE NO MORE STRANGERS AND FOREIGNERS, BUT FELLOWCITIZENS WITH THE SAINTS, AND OF THE HOUSEHOLD OF GOD;
Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Ephesians 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Ephesians 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Now, if you can separate Christ and generate a separate people out of Christ that makes them special your adding to the work of Christ to which He made in Himself ONE NEW MAN. That one New Man is the second Adam and all who believe in Him and put their trust in Him will have His Spirit, and if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ is none of His.
| 2010/3/27 9:37|
| Re: |
I would also like to ask a heart-felt "WHAT????" to the previous quote.
Also, I'm just trying to find some closure here because I'm still farly upset about some of the tone of things yesterday...
So here's what I'm hoping that we as bible believing people can all agree on, that regardless of how we personally view the whole secluar nation state of Israel, we all recognize that the Church of Christ has - at the very least - been brought into "Israel," i.e.,the covenant people of God. And this by faith alone...
We can find common ground on this right?
| 2010/3/27 9:58||Profile|
| Re: |
Jimmy, are you teaching that God has purposes for natural Israel outside the Church of Jesus Christ? I think you are-- and I think it's because Art Katz teaches that.
And if you are, it's a serious error, an extremely serious error, to teach this.
For God has called the nation that issues out of Abraham to serve as a kingdom of priests (Exodus 19:6), so that through it, God might dispense His blessings upon all of creation.
No, Jimmy. Well... yes, if you understand who is the "nation" that comes out of Abraham, the nation that is the "seed" of Abraham.
"But YE are a chosen generation (Gk. race) a royal priesthood, an holy nation..." (1 Pt. 2.9).
Who is the New Covenant apostle Peter speaking of here?
He includes believing Gentiles along with believeing Jews in this kingdom of priests, this holy nation, even all those that God has called out of darkness into His marvellous light...
"Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God..." (1 Pt. 2.10).
It's through THE CHURCH, dear brother, that God intends to dispense His blessings upon all of creation.
| 2010/3/27 10:39||Profile|
| Re: |
the Church of Christ has - at the very least - been brought into "Israel," i.e.,the covenant people of God. And this by faith alone...
That's clear to me, RC. The Church doesn't "replace" Israel. The church IS the Israel of God, and includes first believing Jews (for it was with believing Jews that the Church was first started) and then also believing Gentiles.
| 2010/3/27 10:48||Profile|
| Re: |
We can find common ground on this right?
No, Procyon/Pollux/SueMarie/KrautFrau/JonMarie/RevCrabtree, we cannot, and must not. As my late husband often said, Christian doctrine is subjective and experiential, and not subject to the categories of "true" or "false." The important thing is that we express our love for Christ by bludgeoning one another with His doctrine. If you say this is wrong, and my understanding of Christianity is skewed, you are indicting the entire evangelical church, which has always understood that faith in Christ is chiefly expressed by fighting for the True Doctrine...whatever that is.
For those of you who missed it, my husband LoinGirder was translated and taken up by a fiery chariot to the Third Heaven, where he received a heresy-hunter's crown 20 feet high and with 10,000,000 jewels in it.
It is also reliably reported that Greg Gordon was abducted in Tibet and replaced by an Anabaptist yeti, known to scholars as "Deutero-Gordon."
| 2010/3/27 11:34|
| Re: |
Paul Frederick West
| 2010/3/27 14:36||Profile|