| Re: |
"Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD." - Jeremiah 31 v 35 - 37
Here God is saying that he will not remove Israel from being a nation despite "all that they have done". All their sins and unbelief will NOT cause the LORD GOD to turn away from them. The passage specifically mentions Israel as a nation indicates that this is clearly written about the people of Israel, not a spiritual/allegorical reference to Christians.
How can anyone twist this passages to say otherwise is beyond
i am beginning to believe that replacement theology is just a cloak for anti-semitism.
| 2010/3/26 12:06|
| Re: |
But what you've written about the Reformed position is, I think, not quite right. Here's why, although so-called "replacement theology" says that the church has replaced (or better, become) the New Israel, I think you'll find that historical proponents of Reformed Theology (Calvin, Knox, Zwingli, etc.) felt that God's covenants have always been covenants of grace received through faith.
I think you probably misread me. I never denied that they taught such. So far as I have understood these things, Reformed thinkers have always looked at the covenants as being established by grace through faith. But what Replacement theologians have done is fundamentally no different than Dispensational. Both ultimately create a dichtomoy between the Church and Israel at some point. They just pursue a different path to get to essentially the same location.
| 2010/3/26 12:10||Profile|
| Re: |
I think what you wrote is unkind and unhelpful. You've set up a straw man and knocked it down...
To begin with, Im not from the UK. Im from Ohio. I've only been in the UK 9 months. I'm over here to preach Christ, and to do it without regard to any of your obnoxious armchair-historian critiques on the sins of the United Kingdom.
And secondly, Neo-Nazis, the British Navy, Holocaust Survivors, Anglo-Israelism (which, incidentally is not a synonym for replacement theology) etc. have nothing to do with the question at hand and I'm not sure why you introduced them into this otherwise civil conversation.
As a brother in the Lord I would encourage you to interact with other brothers as a Christian and as a gentleman and not like an unthinking ideologue
Honestly, if you talk to fellow Christians like this it makes me wonder, what kind of things do you say to people who are lost?
So be careful next time please.
And who knows, maybe you could even consider using the bible to explain your position.
| 2010/3/26 12:21||Profile|
| Re: What does the Bible really have to say about the secular Nation-State of Modern-I|
I would like to add that no matter what your stand is on Israel as a nation, as christians, we are called to love and grieve and intercede for people everywhere. Our hearts should be hearts of love for Jew, Gentile, Arab, Scottsman, British, Zulu, you name it, that every human being on this planet would fulfill God's plan for their lives. How can we write anyone off. Love your brother, who is your brother? I think Jesus answered that.
| 2010/3/26 12:25||Profile|
| Re: |
Without getting into a proof-text war, I would like to humbly set forth the following passage for a close consideration. For in it, I believe when rightly understood, all notions of Replacement and Dispensational theologies, and pretty much most other systems simply must fall to the wayside as missing the mark of God's redemptive plan.
Romans 11:11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
We are getting into some deep territory here, and unfortunately I don't have the time to give a close verse by verse exposition. But for now I will give a brief survey of this passage.
In this particular passage, Paul talks about how God is using the salvation of the Gentiles as a means of provoking unregenerate Israel to salvation. How does it do such? Because Israel recognizes the blessing of Abraham being made available to the Gentiles, all on the basis of faith. This is calculated by God to provoke them to jealousy, as they are ultimately to come to the place where they are broken, recognizing that the blessing of Abraham is not with them, in spite of their being descendants of Abarham. Instead the Gentiles have the blessing that should be theirs, and seeing such, the Jew of the last day will be provoked to a jealousy that causes them to long for the blessing of righteousness which comes by faith.
Ultimately Paul sees a time in history where the Jews will be provoked to jealousy, and to receive the salvation blessing that they have been called as children of Abraham to experience. Right now, the vast majority of them are not walking in this blessing, because they lack faith in Christ. Here Paul says that if the Jewish rejection of Christ was powerful enough so as to effect the salvation of pagan Gentiles, then what will be the outcome of Jews finally receiving Christ? He says the Jewish reception of Jesus as Messiah will be such a powerful thing, that it will bring about the resurrection of the dead!
Indeed, a little known Biblical doctrine is that the resurrection of the dead at the end of the age is intimately tied to the conversion of the Jewish people at the end of the age. There will not be one without the other. But at the same time, this coming to life of the Jewish people unto salvation at the end of the age, will not be without going through a great and terrible death. It will not happen without the near destruction of the present day state of Israel. It will not happen without a final holocaust at the end of the age, or as Jeremiah called it, "the time of Jacob's trouble."
| 2010/3/26 12:27||Profile|
| Re: |
Where is Liongirder when you need him? lol.
| 2010/3/26 12:28||Profile|
| Re: |
Please, let's just put a stop to that nonsense now.
Listen, I have no objection to the Jeremiah passage quoted above. But your quotation does not answer the question. The question is this, do you honestly believe that the Israel spoken of in that passage pertains to the modern, secular nation-state that calls itself Israel?
And if your answer is yes, then help me understand why.
| 2010/3/26 12:31||Profile|
I am not considered "Jewish" in the sense that my mother was not Jewish. Still, my paternal grandmother was Jewish
Brother, back in the day, hitler's germany, that would be enough to get you put into a death camp, one eighth Jewish ancestary was the line at which they'd put you in a death camp...one eighth.
you ever wonder why its so tough to evangelize Jews?...or why they shudder inside and turn you off when you say the Beautiful Name of Jesus?
history. for thousands of years, the "followers" of Jesus, have put my people to the lance, to the sword, to the rifle, to the stake under which was dry wood and pitch, all the while saying, "kill a Jew for Jesus", or "you killed our god, now we kill you". Even Martin Luther, who started out so strong and annointed degenerated to a point that had him writing, "On Jews and their Lies", which was used by German Lutherans circa 1933-45 to give spiritual underpinings to the demonic deeds of the hitlerites.
in answer to your last question,
If God has rejected the Jews as His chosen people, then why does Satan hate them so much? Nazis, Muslim extremists and some modern neo-Nazis seem hell-bent on destroying the physical lineage of Abraham.
God hasnt rejected us, i myself stand as testimony to that Truth, but the devil has one great vain last hope in these last days, kill off the Jews, and he can "win", and show God to be false, which will never happen, because there is nothing false about Yahweh, nothing.
i got about one foot out the door here brother, getting stumbled, my focus turned, cant have that, i have to keep my eyes on Jesus Messiah.
| 2010/3/26 12:35|
| dont worry Reverend |
your post revealed to everything i need to know about you.
after all, what can one expect from a Jew like myself, a
who is an
what do you expect...right?
i certainly know what to expect from you: careful wild shoot,
"But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Romans 11:17-21 (ESV)
this will be my last post on the matter, and to you.
| 2010/3/26 12:52|
| Re: Chris|
My dear Nathan,
Why once again have you resorted to sensationalism?
Why do you seem bent on having a discussion about Nazis?
Obviously you are quite worked up, but heres a possible solution to whatever it is that has gotten you so chapped: Why not go find a bible, blow the dust off of it and help us advance this discussion?
The thrust of what we were trying to discuss was this:
Do you think that the modern secular nation-state that calls itself Israel is the same as the "Israel" mentioned in Scripture. If so why?
| 2010/3/26 12:56||Profile|