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RevCrabtree
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Joined: 2010/3/26
Posts: 31


 Re:

Sorry KJ,

I was gathering that you were in support of a dispensationalist stance.... In fact I'd swear it based on some of what you wrote... But nevertheless, I'm sorry if I've wrongly shoved you into a box that you aren't in...

I would disagree with you that Reformed Theology creates "a two peoples of God theory." What can you give me to support this. I really want to understand where you are coming from on this one?

RC

 2010/3/26 9:24Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

I would disagree with you that Reformed Theology creates "a two peoples of God theory." What can you give me to support this. I really want to understand where you are coming from on this one?



From my understanding of Replacement theology as held by the Reformed camp, two peoples are created by those who hold to the belief that the Church has replaced Israel. Thus, God had his dealings with the nation of Israel under the Old Covenant, but under the New Covenant, the Church has superseeded the promises made to Israel, and has effectively replaced it. Israel was physical, the Church is seen as spiritual.

This is my understanding of replacement theology in the Reformed camp. I'm no scholar on their positions, so, I could be wrong :-)

Quote:

I was gathering that you were in support of a dispensationalist stance.... In fact I'd swear it based on some of what you wrote



I'm not going to deny I have similar beliefs to some things found in the dispensational system. But as one scholar once said, "We are all a little dispensationalist." :-)

I do have some agreement with them on some issues. God does have a plan for national Israel. But what dispensationalists have failed to understand, is that God's plan for "physical" and "national" Israel, has always been intimately tied together with them being a spiritual, priestly, and holy people. They have created a false dichotomy which creates two peoples of God, one for one dispensation and another for another dispensation. In it they divide the Messianic mission and purpose of Christ. So much so that some ulta-dispensationalists have almost created two Messiahs. Some, like John Hagee, have fallen off the boat into heresy.


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Jimmy H

 2010/3/26 9:43Profile
RevCrabtree
Member



Joined: 2010/3/26
Posts: 31


 Re:

Great answers!

Thanks!

I think that what you've said about the dispensationalist position is fair.

But what you've written about the Reformed position is, I think, not quite right. Here's why, although so-called "replacement theology" says that the church has replaced (or better, become) the New Israel, I think you'll find that historical proponents of Reformed Theology (Calvin, Knox, Zwingli, etc.) felt that God's covenants have always been covenants of grace received through faith.

Think for example of God's covenant with Abraham. Are we meant to take the promises associated with this promise with a kind of crass literalism, as if this covenant was a blanket "fire-insurance" policy for anyone who happened to be a Hebrew. No! God's covenants were always given by grace and received through faith (Galatians 3:7-9 is a great example of this).
And regardless of national origin, if the covenant isn't received by faith a person is outside of grace... And so Paul could write:

...not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
(Romans 9:6 ESV)

And this verse alone makes me scratch my head when people start in on the “We support Israel” bandwagon.

Again, you gave a great and helpful response! Thanks.

Yours,
RC



 2010/3/26 10:14Profile
Goldminer
Member



Joined: 2006/11/7
Posts: 1178
Alabama

 Re: What does the Bible really have to say about the secular Nation-State of Modern-I

Quote:
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

I don't pretend to be a theologin. However, I don't think all of the gentiles have come in yet, so they are still blinded for the most part. I take God literally in this passage. I would also suggest that you listen to all of Art Katz' teachings or read his books on Israel.

I feel too many amazing miracles took place to put them back in their little piece of land. Only God could have done that. Why have nations tried to wipe them off the face of the planet, and still want to? They are a unique peculiar people that claim the lineage of Abraham, God's chosen man. They are blinded now for the most part but will see clearly in God's time. They will get their opportunity for repentence, just like the rest of us. But God is not casting them off forever. Will they all come in. All that choose to will, just as we gentiles have that choice. What God sets His love on He loves to the uttermost. He is a covenant keeping God. It is us who break our promises.


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KLC

 2010/3/26 10:25Profile
ADisciple
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Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re: What does the Bible really have to say about the secular Nation-State of Modern-I

Quote:
This New Israel is the Church of Jesus Christ.



Greetings, RevCrabtree.

Refreshing post! Some of us have discussed this previously. You'll no doubt discover (if you haven't already) that if you hold to this perspective you are in a small minority these days.

But what you said is right, and scriptural. The true Israel is in fact the church of Jesus Christ: God's new creation.

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God" (Gal. 6.15,16).

This doesn't mean that God has "replaced" Israel with the church. What he has done is to bring the Gentiles into the church. Any man or woman whether Jew of Gentile, if they are walking according to the rule of new creation Life, they are part of the Israel of God.

If a Gentile is not walking according to that rule, he has no part in the Israel of God. And if someone who is a Jew by nature is not walking according to that rule, neither is he a part of the Israel of God.




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Allan Halton

 2010/3/26 10:55Profile
RevCrabtree
Member



Joined: 2010/3/26
Posts: 31


 Re:

Goldminer,

Thanks. This is helpful but let me see if I'm getting what you are saying.

Are you saying that under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Paul wrote Romans 11 envisioning the modern secular nation-state of Israel, and saying that it would be granted universal salvation at some future time?

To my mind this seems a little more than we can get from Romans 11.

Yours,
RC

 2010/3/26 11:07Profile
RevCrabtree
Member



Joined: 2010/3/26
Posts: 31


 Re:

Dear ADisciple,

An annoyingly loud AMEN!!!!! to what you have written.

God bless,
RC

 2010/3/26 11:13Profile
Goldminer
Member



Joined: 2006/11/7
Posts: 1178
Alabama

 Re:

Quote:
Are you saying that under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Paul wrote Romans 11 envisioning the modern secular nation-state of Israel, and saying that it would be granted universal salvation at some future time?

No I am not. I never mentioned anything about universal salvation. I believe only those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved.

I am saying that as a nationality the Jew can trace his lineage down to Abraham and even though other nations have tried to wipe them off the face of the earth, God still had a plan and covenant with them because of their father Abraham. I do believe that there is a spritual Israel and that it will be made up of both Jew and gentile who are both now called believers. But I also believe that God has allowed the little nation of Israel to continue for a purpose. Do I know why, only what the word says about it in Romans 11. Who are the blinded ones that it is talking about if it isn't Israel?


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KLC

 2010/3/26 11:36Profile









 Re: What does the Bible really have to say about the secular Nation-State of Modern-I

whenever i read rhetoric like this:

Quote:
This New Israel is the Church of Jesus Christ.



it's a safe assumption, said writer is from the United Kingdom, after all, the theo-theory is called "British-Israelism".....or these days, "replacement theology"....some, even go so far as to call it "christian identity", but that hellish subsegment is the theology of the neo nazi, and i'm NOT (later edit)accusing you of that.

but as a Jew who follows Jesus, your nation, that is the whole UK has terrible history in regards to how they have treated the Jews, for centuries, right up until before the formation of the modern State of Israel, the British Navy turning back boatloads of holocaust survivors.

you have 9 posts here, and just show up, another replacement theology adherent....hmmmm, i do so love this cyber ministry, just downloaded a blessed series of teaching , "Desert Survival" from brother Don Courville, but some of the swill i've been reading on these forums, is really stumbling me.

suffice to say, i vehemently disagree with you, and anybody else that hews to the "replacement theology" stand.

enough said.

 2010/3/26 11:50
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4529


 Re:

Hello...

I wrote this in another thread about praying for the nation of Israel. It contains some of my thoughts on this issue.

...............................
...............................
...............................

Hi snufalapagus...

Quote:
Hi Chris, I really don't know what you mean about we don't have to work, we don't have to pray, we don't have to help the poor since God can take care of all these things. I am trying to grasp the connection to my statement in letting God defend Israel, if He is for her.


I was simply using the same sort of logic from your previous post and applying it to other things that we can consider. We are not of this world, but we still live in it. There are earthly responsibilities that we have while we are confined to this earthly sod. For instance, we must provide for the needs of our family (I Timothy 5:8). We must look after widows and orphans (James 1:27). We must submit to earthly authorities (I Peter 2:13). We must not be lazy and work if we want to eat (II Thessalonians 3:10).

Now, God is more than capable to take care of the needs of widows and orphans, our families and our own personal needs. Yet, the responsibility remains. Now consider what you wrote:
Quote:

Israel can look after itself. If God is for her, lets see if He comes in her defence. She's leaned on the arm of the United States far too long, it's time to lean on God.


Now, imagine if we replaced "Israel" with the word "widows." It would read as follows:
Quote:

[b]Widows[/b] can look after themselves. If God is for them, lets see if He comes in their defence. They've leaned on the [b]welfare[/b] arm of the United States far too long, it's time to lean on God.


Do you see how that sounds? Regardless of whether or not widows (or orphans, etc...) rely upon God to take care of their needs, believers are still expected to look after their needs.

We can look at Israel in several different ways. We can look at them as a secular nation (both in government and in the physical heritage of the people). We can look at them as a nation (people) who have been rejected by God and replaced as the "chosen people" by believers. Or, we can look at them as a nation (people) where they have largely rejected Messiah Yeshua, but believers are now "engrafted" into the Vine of inheritance.

Now, America is unique in that it is a "nation without a people." The United States is a nation made up of many different people from different backgrounds. The nation of Israel, however, is unique in that it traces its "birthright" back to a promise made by God to Abraham -- hundreds of years before the Law of Moses. I believe that God is "married to the backslider." He has not forsaken His people. I believe that the people spoken of in Ezekiel 37 was the physical nation of Israel (who would be gathered back to their homeland from around the world). This, in my view, was fulfilled in 1948. I also believe that God desires for all of Israel to be saved. Believers (Gentile or Jewish) can receive the same inheritance as "joint heirs" in Messiah Yeshua (Christ Jesus). This is mentioned extensively in Romans 10, Romans 11, I Corinthians 11 and in verses like Ephesians 2:12 and Ephesians 3:6. It doesn't seem like God has replaced or rejected His own chosen people. I support the nation of Israel on spiritual grounds as well as on secular, governmental grounds (since it is the only free democracy in the Middle East).

To simply shrug our shoulders with the excuse that we should "let God be God" is akin to neglecting widows and orphans with physical assistance simply because God is their defender (Proverbs 23:11).

I do understand the underlying principle that you are conveying. We should always be willing to let God have His way. However, I also think that God's way frequently results in His desire to use people (or even governments) to bring about His will. I believe that God still sees and looks after the nation of Israel...and has used other nations to do this (like allies who ended the Shoah during WW2). Thus, I do not view Israel as "just a regular gentile nation." Yet, I would certainly agree that the nation of Israel needs God.

Personally, I feel that the idea that God completely rejected the nation of Israel by replacing the nation entirely with believes is flawed and unscriptural. Disclaimer: I am not considered "Jewish" in the sense that my mother was not Jewish. Still, my paternal grandmother was Jewish...so I do feel a different sort of kinship with the physical nation of Israel (at least, from a non-Halocho perspective). Anyway, I suppose that it is through these notions that influence the way that I think in regard to the nation. I still love and pray for the peace of Jerusalem (Psalm 122:6). I even hope that the nation of my temporary and secondary citizenship (the US) will not hand Israel over to its enemies. I certainly believe that God can and will protect her, but I also think that He might have been doing this through the vessel of the United States since 1948.

*EDIT - By the way, I identify myself with the Jews -- just like Corrie ten Boom's father did during World War II. He stood in line with the Jews who were being branded for their lineage. One might wonder: If God has rejected the Jews as His chosen people, then why does Satan hate them so much? Nazis, Muslim extremists and some modern neo-Nazis seem hell-bent on destroying the physical lineage of Abraham.


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Christopher

 2010/3/26 11:54Profile





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