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RevCrabtree
Member



Joined: 2010/3/26
Posts: 31


 What does the Bible really have to say about the secular Nation-State of Modern-Israel?

Brothers,
Why are we assuming that the promises concerning "Israel" in the Bible are all referring to a modern day, secular nation-state that happens to be called Israel? I think that there are too many scriptural acrobatics that one has to do to make the whole thing fit together and therefore, I don't see this an honest assessment of Biblical truth... it strikes me as interpreting the Word of God through today's newspaper, if you know what I mean.

I know that you'll all agree that Galatians 3:7,28&29 (in addition to several other places that we could mention) indicate that in Christ all racial, biological, and ethnic barriers have been broken down and that a new covenant family has been raised up - a New Israel if you like... This New Israel is the Church of Jesus Christ.

Unless I am very much mistaken this was the position of all of the Protestant Reformers and therefore we ought to think through this Israel-issue not only in light of Biblical truth but also in the light of the traditions of our protestant faith.

In addition to this, the secular nation-state of Israel is primarily in need of the gospel. They are a Christ-denying nation (2% Christian and 37% athiest or agnostic)... It therefore strikes me as odd that so many of my evangelical brothers would view modern-Israel as partners in the same battle.


 2010/3/26 6:40Profile









 Re: What does the Bible really have to say about the secular Nation-State of Modern-I



Brother Crabtree, I agree with your whole post.

This topic has been discussed several times before on SI, mainly muddied by diabolically orchestrated misinformation, frequently attempting to mix the temporal with the spiritual.

Also, my own personal feeling is that there is, today, a great lack of reading the main Old Testament narrative, simply allowing God's own word tell His point of view.

I would add: Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he [i]who was[/i] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [i]was[/i] by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, [i]thou[/i] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [i]it is[/i] now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

And,

Hebrews 12: 18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which [voice] they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: 21 And so terrible was the sight, [i]that[/i] Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:) 22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [i]that of[/i] Abel. 25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more [i]shall not[/i] we [i]escape[/i], if we turn away from him that [i]speaketh[/i] from heaven: 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this [i]word[/i], Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God [i]is[/i] a consuming fire.

And,

Hebrews 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. 13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. 14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come. 15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of [i]our[/i] lips giving thanks to his name. 16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.


And,

Zechariah 11: 10 And I took my staff, [i]even[/i] Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people. 11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it [i]was[/i] the word of the LORD.

{so...: or, the poor of the flock, etc. certainly knew}


 2010/3/26 7:50
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

I wish I had more time to elaborate, but I don't. In passing I would like to point you to the sermons of Art Katz on issues relating to this. I will say the following in brief:

The modern secular state of Israel exists so that God might ultimately punish it and bring the Jews to salvation at the end of the age. This is in keeping with the pattern He established in Deuteronomy 28-31, and fleshed out in intimate detail through the writings of the prophets. As Paul explains in Romans 11, a partial hardening has happened to the natural branches, so that we as Gentiles might be recipients of God's mercy. However, there is coming a time yet again in the future, where the remnant of the Jews who survive Jacob's trouble will be converted. The Deliverer WILL take away the sin of Jacob in the last days, and bring about a national salvation of the remnant of the Jews who survive that time. And so ALL of Israel at that time, will be saved.

But this will not come about without God taking up His great controversy with the nations. Be careful of spiritualizing the writings of the apostles and prophets away, as has been common in Reformed circles, so as to make the Scriptures one big meaningnless spiritualized allegory. For God does have a calling and purpose for the unregenerate nation of Israel. But the fulfillment of that purpose still awaits for the appointed time of God's mercy towards unregenerate and national Israel.


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Jimmy H

 2010/3/26 8:39Profile
RevCrabtree
Member



Joined: 2010/3/26
Posts: 31


 Re:


Splendid!

I think that your mentioning of Galatians 4:22-31 (although fairly dense material) is right on the money... v.26 especially. That whole argument is Paul’s final blow to the “Pro-Israel” contingent of his day.

Personally, I really feel that the whole Israel debate that is effecting a large portion of American Evangelicalism is nothing more than a red herring and a distraction with no REAL Biblical or historical validity behind it whatsoever.

And the contention surrounding this issue has pushed evangelicals into a certain political box thereby limiting our ability to credibly spread the gospel.

I pray that all of our brothers would set the "We support Israel" agenda aside and get on with the "We proclaim Christ and Him crucified" agenda.

 2010/3/26 8:49Profile









 Re:

Genuine Christians support the nation and people of Israel
and the spreading of the gospel.
They are not mutually exclusive.
Nor can you twist the scriptures enough to suggest God has no
further use for the descendants of Abraham.

What is it with you alleged Christians who hate God's ancient
people?

 2010/3/26 9:03
RevCrabtree
Member



Joined: 2010/3/26
Posts: 31


 Re:

Dear Brother,
I find it perplexing that you say that Reformed circles have spiritualized “the writings of the Apostles and Prophets away.”
How have Reformed evangelicals done so?
I would suggest to you as a Reformed Evangelical that my whole argument is against the over-spiritualizing of the nation of Israel.
I say this kindly but your reply is very “framework-heavy,” (dispensationalist I think?) and I’m not terribly interested in theological framework and speculation. That is what's brought on this distraction in the first place.

God bless.
R Crabtree

 2010/3/26 9:05Profile
Goldminer
Member



Joined: 2006/11/7
Posts: 1178
Alabama

 Re: What does the Bible really have to say about the secular Nation-State of Modern-I

While I totally agree with this statement

Quote:
"We proclaim Christ and Him crucified"

I also agree with this quote
Quote:
Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen


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KLC

 2010/3/26 9:05Profile
RevCrabtree
Member



Joined: 2010/3/26
Posts: 31


 Re:

To Rev. Enue,
Nobody said anything about hating anyone, that was an unkind assumption to make.

The question is whether or not a secular nation-state that happens to have called itself “Israel” is actually the same Israel that the Bible is speaking of.

You've mentioned that I've twisted the scriptures. If I have it was unintentional. But you haven't even referenced them to support your position... and this, to my mind, is much more dangerous.

yours,
R Crabtree

 2010/3/26 9:13Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

I say this kindly but your reply is very “framework-heavy,” (dispensationalist I think?) and I’m not terribly interested in theological framework and speculation



I'm actually just as against dispensational theology as I am the replacement theology of most Reformed doctrine. Both, in essence, create a two peoples of God theory, each just in different ways. I maintain, as Paul did in Romans 11, that there is one people of God, as there has always been and always will be.

I am also against the sentimental pro-Israel stance you see by many Evangelicals today. It acts as if the nation of Israel could do no wrong.

I would encourage you to closely examine Isaiah 49, which shows what part of the Messianic task was and is: to bring Jacob back to the Lord, and restore him into the blessings of the covenant.


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Jimmy H

 2010/3/26 9:16Profile
RevCrabtree
Member



Joined: 2010/3/26
Posts: 31


 Re:

Goldminer,

I agree too. 100%.

How do you interpret Romans 11 though?

yours,
R C

 2010/3/26 9:18Profile





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