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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri


My questions are very similar to yours. If I'm still struggling with sin, I haven't really died yet? (Both a statement and a question)

These are age old questions and I believe they have answers. God's word holds the answers if we will probe and study and seek His guidance. The thread on the distinction between baptism in the Holy Spirit and filled with the Spirit is taking a coarse to answer these questions. It is becoming a long thread, but if you print the material out and study through it- there are a lot of answers already.

God Bless,

Robert Wurtz II

 2004/10/14 7:13Profile

Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


Brother Ron you wrote;

"It was the kind of 'discussion' that two people in passing trains might have! A certain amount of volume but not a lot of communication!

We are learning... slowly".

I LOVE YOU MAN! ... But i want to make it perfectly clear from my end that i don't see us as not communicating just because we may not agree on a subject ... To the contrary, to me up until the point that one of us (usually me) deem our continued communication an exercise in futility and steps off, that's when we're no longer communicating ... Personally i think you have some heretical views that you seem determined to hold onto so it's useless for me to go on adinfinitum, so i break it off like John the Baptist when he pointed out to Herod, "You may be in possession of your brothers wife, but i'm here to tell you it ain't lawful" ... Case closed, even it it cost me my head later ... '0)

And brother Ron i pray God that just because we may not see eye to eye on certain doctrines that you really don't feel that we're on passing trains, God forbid, for i'm hoping that on the all important doctrine of attaining salvation we're both passengers on the same metro named "Jesus" ... i have no question about your stance in regards Jesus being our only means, but i have to admit that i do often wonder why, to me, you seem to pounce on the off topic, at the sacrifice of the main subject ... Case in point with the "Christian Demon Possession" thread ... The main point was can Christians be possessed, but your response was to where does it say in the Bible "accept" in regards to ones coming to Christ ... Gnat! ... And here brother Robert posts about "Salvation Neglected", and you respond to Spitfire as to whether you and i (two, less than gnats) can communicate or not, and i was so looking forward to your take on brother Robert's post ...

Again, although we may not often times agree, i think we communicate our stances to one another very well ... '0) ... And praise be to God we're ALL learning ... Amen

Now to the main subject of this thread ...

 2004/10/14 18:28Profile

Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


Brother Robert you posted;

Is it not a marvel that the devils fear God more than most Christians to the place where they fear and tremble in His presence and plead and beg not to be tormented or destroyed before the time; yet Saint and sinner alike have made a perpetual habit of neglecting so great a salvation?

No i don't find this a marvel, for the devils "actually" know God literally in a physical since, while we can only know God literally in a faith based spiritual sense ... Angels, satan, fallen angels actually see, or have seen God Father, Son and Spirit ... i'm always chilled when i read any scripture regarding devils and demons recognizing instantly who Jesus was, whereas in our faithwalk with Him we don't all the time see Him, and are often times prone to miss Him all together ...

i was drawn to your thread because just the other day in a round about way i had a group of unbelievers ask me via the allowance of such evil in the land, "Where is your God" ... i answered in the "God is not slow as some men account it as slowness" vien, but it really struck me then why our world is so Godless, and Christ Church now so unGodly ... God's just to slow, and everyone's tired of waiting, especially His Church ... And so afterwards i went into this loooooong prayer with God about showing us His face, breaking His loooooong silence, and even sweeping us with His mighty hand of judgment if necessary ... "PLease God, unmistakably reveal Yourself that mankind will once again believe in You ... at least your faith crippled Church" ... it was then that i realized how discouraged i was, and it was the following day that God answered my prayer via brother Ron's devotional post ...

The following i'm gonna answer as what i see His Body reflecting, and particularly here in America because this is what i see firsthand ...

Does Christ interest you?

What do our actions answer? ... NO!

Are you concerned about the suffering He endured to pay for YOUR sin?

What do our actions answer? ... NO!

Do you even care enough to seek Christ for every good and perfect gift that He has purchased on the cross that we might be partakers of the Divine Nature and escape the corruption that is in the world through lust?

What do our actions answer? ... If the gift ain't material ... NO!

This generation, if it responds at all to the message of the cross often does so for selfish motives birthed from selfish preaching and teaching. People in error ask: What can I get from this? What will God bless me with? What is in it all for me? They have found a way to ‘get saved’ without turning their life over to Christ in any real and meaningful way.

Yep, that's exactly the way it is, and that's exactly why our Lord has changed my tone of proclamation from that of Jeremiah, to Ezekiel ... The God who sits on the sapphire blue, atop the vast sea of glass, atop those wheels of such terrible proportion, full of eyes all about, is addressing both the false builders, and daubers of the afore mentioned heretical, doctrinal walls, as well as all those loving to have their ears tickled by living inside such spiritually dangerous structures ... The walls of selfish ministries and motives are about to tumble, and many shall be crushed!

"How does this square with "So great Salvation?"

It doesn't, and God's had enough! ... Watch, and see ...

 2004/10/14 18:29Profile

Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374



i know many saints who everyday are working out their soul salvation ... i was raised a Jehovah's Witness, and that's how they are ... All my life, up until i got saved, via a Baptist preacher, i always thought that God was the cosmic Watchman, sitting in heaven, just waiting to zap me for every wrong i did ... i hated it, hated religion, hated God, and came to a conclusion because JW's don't believe in hell, but believe that if you die outside of Jehovah's favor you just die, with no hope of resurrection, that i'd just live a life of wickedness, and when i died i'd just be dead, and told Him as much ... i thank Him today that He didn't leave me in such a blind state, for had i died without Jesus i'd be in the eternal torment of hell, for ever and ever, and that grace alone is really sufficient ...

The other thing that i love Him so much for is that he saved me via the Baptist doctrine of eternal security, that He'd never leave me, nor forsake me, ever! ... It's been this fact, whether you agree with it or not, that has brought me to such a place of submission to my Master ... He didn't scare me into submission, He loved me into submission ... Fear of God (although i do fear Him) is not what keeps me submitted to His will, but it's my love for Him, because even when i was unfaithful to Him, He was never unfaithful to me ... Even when i was adulterous to Him, He was never adulterous to me ... Even when i was a prodigal, and had to make the long painful trip back home, do you know what i found? ... i found our Father peering down the road looking for this lost son, and boy oh boy the love i felt when i was once again wrapped in our Fathers arms of love, grace and mercy ... And you know what? ... My older brother Jesus Christ, He wasn't mad at our Father, or me, because i'd went out an squandered my inheritance, and our Father was now treating me better than i ever deserved to be treated ... No, Christ was right there hugging, and loving me just as much ... That's how good God is, for He loves me, and you, and the world more than He loves Himself, and His only begotten Son, because He sent, and came here, to die for our transgression ... i got tears of joy in my eyes right now just writing about this ...

Spitfire ... Gideon ... if you'll just continually meditate on the degree of Gods love for YOU! ... i'm a witness, that meditation will eventually keep your old nature nailed up on it's cross ...

Christ's love to you both ... Christ's love, is all sufficient ... Amen ...

 2004/10/14 18:32Profile

Joined: 2004/8/3
Posts: 633

 Re: What if we're standing at the bottom of a well?

Has anyone ever heard a song with lyrics like this:
What if we're standing at the bottom of a well
thinking we've risen to the top of a mountain?

What if we're knocking at the gates of hell thinking we're heaven bound?

What if we spend our lives thinking of ourselves
when we should have been thinking of each other?

What if we reach up and touch the ground to find we're living life upside down?

I can't remember who did this song, but it has always stuck with me.
Rahman, I don't want to take things for granted because I see so many "Christians" with what I believe is a false peace. They think everything is just dandy with them and God because they walked down some church aisle 45 years ago when it's obvious their hearts are full of sin. I know my own heart isn't right either, but I don't know how to fix it. Something is nagging me. It's knowing that I'm living by this world's standards. Knowing that, really and truly, I'm selfish. I want it to change, and I do pray, I repent all the time, but so far, I haven't really changed. I feel like God can't trust me. I'm one of those whom he has said, "Come and follow me." And the cares of this life are holding me back. I'm striving to break free. I'm just telling you all the truth. I can't pretend it isn't true. I'm sweating and groaning to go through some kind of narrow, constricted opening in the spirit. It's not happening very fast. I feel like a baby stuck in the birth canal.

 2004/10/15 6:14Profile

Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374

 Re: To Spitfire ...


i hear what you're saying, and i feel your pain ... i've been there, unable to forgive myself even after Christ had forgiven me in my running to Him for salvation ...

i think you summed it up best when you said;

"I'm sweating and groaning to go through some kind of narrow, constricted opening in the spirit. It's not happening very fast. I feel like a baby stuck in the birth canal".

Spitfire that's exactly what you're suppose to be doing ... Scripture says that the whole creation did the same thing until Christ, the hope of glory, came on the scene ...

Rom. 8:
[22] For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
[23] And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
[24] For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
[25] But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Your believing on Christ for your salvation canceled out the above initial groaning, but not the groanings that come with getting your spiritual sea legs, to walk the true Christian walk ... There are some saints who seem to get it right off, then there are those of us where it takes some time ... But as i said before, if you keep meditating on your own infirmaties, and not the love of God/Christ/Holy Ghost for you, your not birthing thru is not God's fault, but your own, because you're the one that's holding onto the canal walls, and all that is is resistance to the love of Christ, via the Holy Ghost, whosw attempting to free you ... That is why the scripture further states ...

[26] Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
[27] And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Spitfire you, others, and myself can't do a thing for you in the breech birth position that you're in now ... Only that great spiritual obstetrician the Holy Ghos t can ... i hear your pain, and i can tell you more importantly the Holy Spirit does too ... Cry out to Him about your condition, and ask Him to make intercession for you, and He will, unto that great High Priest in heaven named Jesus Christ, who knows exactly what you're going thru

Heb 4:
[14] Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
[15] For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
[16] Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Then the scripture goes on ...

[28] And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
[29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
[30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

This hurtful birth process toward your fine upstanding Christian walk may seem like your dying in the process, but take it from someone whose been thru what you're going thru, you're actually in a process towards life ... All things, even what seems bad, will eventually work out to the good, but we do have something to do with that process and it's this ... How much will we resist the Spirit's aid toward our eventual birth in this particular instance, for i sure hope you realize that as long as we're walking on this low plain there will always be another birthing to success that the Holy Ghost will be taking us thru ... All i'm saying is that the anestesia in the process, is meditating on the love of Christ, by returning His love ...

The scripture continues ...

[31] What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Now how the Holy Spirit got me out of self condemnation to the point of spiritual growth stagnation was thru a Baptist preacher who made me understand that i, especially i, don't have the power to be against myself, when God is for me ... Who do we think we are to continue to condemn ourselves, when God has forgiven us in initial salvation, and made a way of provision for us to forgiveness when we mess up in our christian walk ...

[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[10] If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Even after salvation we will sin in some degree, we'll not be sinless, although we should sin less ... What makes a saint of God sin less? ... Meditating on the love of God toward us, will make us return that love to Him by the offering up of our bodies/lives as a living sacrifice to Him ...

And the scripture continues to sum up why ...

[32] He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
[33] Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
[34] Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

[35] Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
[36] As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
[37] Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
[38] For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
[39] Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Who can seperate us from the love of God ... Nothing, and nobody, including, and especially yourself ...

It took me some time to get to this, but with the aid of the Holy Ghost, and the prayers of others, eventually the anestesia of God's love relaxed me enough to let go of the side of that old birth canal i was so comfortable, but so uncomfortable in, and allowed me to be born into a sin less walk with God ...

It may take you some time also Spitfire, and i'm praying for you, and i know the Holy Ghost will do the rest ... i look forward to your future testimony in this regard on this forum ... God bless, and amen.

 2004/10/15 10:35Profile

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